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Raise Dead: A nice big bone to the simulationists

Revinor said:
It goes even further. Reasonable PC should let his lifetime villain escape, instead of killing him - by killing your archfoe, you give up chances for raise dead.


Unless, of course, choosing not to kill your arch-foe means that you have turned your back on your destiny, and thus you will not be able to come back if you die.

A free-willed being can choose not to carry out the tasks he is destined for. That same being should not count on the help of the Furies if he happens to get run over by an apple-cart the next day...
 

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In the home games i play in, the DM decides what happens as far as fate and that kind of thing. If the high priest needs to come back, then he can. If not, then sux to be him. I agree with the philosophy that destiny means whether or not the player wants to continue that character.
The best part about raise dead is that i am glad there are no negative levels for it :D
 

I will note that everyone who abolishes or massively restricts resurrection magic in previous editions of the game is applying house-rules - the core setting assumes the (limited) availability of this magic.

I really don't know why the discussion here has centred on PC resurrection, when the rule is actually meant to address NPC resurrection primarily, and its consequences for the game world.

In previous editions core D&D has always failed to address in a coherent way why the rich and powerful are not constantly raised/resurrected. The societies portrayed in the backgrounds and novels don't reflect the availability of this sort of magic. I'm not surprised as it produces a very different setting feel where eg. in the case of the Steven Brust Dragaera books people are killed as a warning with the expectation they would be subsequently raised. While such ideas are intriguing and can be played with, a setting closer to our own is easier to plot for and easier for players to understand.

What the rule does is imply campaign settings where most NPCs die permanently, and there is no automatic expectation that the rich and famous can be routinely resurrected. It implies a world closer to our own, where the vast majority of people fear death as permanent, whether they be paupers or princes. It allows mundane assassinations without high-powered magic, duels to the actual death etc. This makes the mechanics of the typical campaign better match the setting writeups and plots typical in gaming and other literature, and as such is more consistent than just ignoring the whole issue. Consistency is a core component of simulationism as I understand it and so it could be said the rule is more simulationist for the average campaign world.

Resurrection magic was in the game to compensate for the arbitrarily high chance of death in mid to high level adventuring. Low level pcs just died, mid level pcs might be raised with difficulty, high level pcs generally got rezzed if the players wanted to still play them. The more IC hated and OOC appreciated a BBEG the more likely they would return even from death. What has been described for 4e PC resurrection is basically what happened in most of the D&D campaigns I played in or ran in previous editions.

The PCs are generally exceptional. This sort of thing is always a negotiation between the player and the DM, where the player wants the PC back and the DM has to consider the ramifications of allowing it. Do remember it can be the other way around as well - sometimes the DM wants the PC to come back due to ongoing plot reasons and the player may want a new character.

I like this rule as IMO it won't change anything for the PCs, but makes the average campaign world more consistent. And for those who don't like resurrection, the rule can work for you as well, maybe no-one has a destiny to return, or perhaps its a one in a million chance that just might work...
 

Sir Sebastian Hardin said:
I was thinking...
Maybe it is a good character concept... Maybe a morally devastated hero who ended his life with suicide that was suddenly raised by a mysterious (good) cleric. Inspite of being disgusted with life he has to deal with it because he has some destiny to achieve, being reluctanct until he decides to embrace it

It's an interesting idea. Finding out who the priest is and why he keeps raising the character could lead to an interesting campaign. But if it's really important, I'd even have the gods just raise the character automatically until he achieves his destiny.

But I would want that to be how most characters or NPCs are raised.
 

Hmmm, with this I could also see Raise Dead perhaps used as a curse -- a high-powered ritual inflicted on a late-heroic character, ensuring that he not only dies a lot but comes back from it in the most agonizing way possible. At that point, you have a character who finds himself perhaps looking for a way to finally rest, but Destiny or some other force is actively keeping him from it -- and not telling him why.
 

billd91 said:
I may prefer the 3.5 flavor actually because then it's about the choice of the character rather than cosmic fiat. And if you've finally arrived in whatever heaven your religion espouses... why would you want to go back to the world where you died a violent death anyway? That's why I've always considered raisings rare.

And if you got sent to the Nine Hells and are now burning in agony, you'd rather stay there, too?
 

Where do you draw the line?

Why doesn't the farmer have a "destiny" to be a good husband, a good father, raise children and teach them right from wrong, and live a good life? Isn't that a destiny? Well, then, he gets a raise dead too.

OK, if that's too much of a stretch for the "Must have a destiny" rule, then surely a king, or a high priest, or a leader of a guild of thieves, surely guys like these have a destiny? Guys like these have bards singing songs about them, have thousands or tens of thousands of people who know them and revere (or fear) them. Surely they have enough destiny to be raised?

As for me, I don't see the need for this silly rule.

Raising the dead needs no "destiny" at all. It never has, and never will, require destiny.

In my 3E game, you can raise a farmer from the dead if you want to.

So, you ask why everyone doesn't live forever?

Simple:
1. Raise dead costs a lot of money. The gem is expensive and casting the spell destroys the gem. Want to come back? You better be wealthy. This is why farmers and goatherds and barmaids never get raised - they can't afford it and they almost never have a wealthy relative or friend who will pony up the cash.
2. Raise dead requires a relatively intact corpse. There are many ways to die that Raise Dead can't fix. The better versions of the spell are harder to find (how many level 18 priests are there in the world, anyway?) and more expensive, so they are out of the reach of just about anyone. If you die to dragon fire, or acid, or get eaten by a hungry ogre, you better be really rich and very well connected to know someone with the right spell and be able to pay for the component.
3. None of these spells handles aging. Even the wealthiest king in all the world, with dozens of epic priests running around eager to True Resurrect the king in a moments notice can die of old age. You don't come back from that. (Maybe this is a bit of a house rule - I haven't read True Resurrect in so long I don't remember if it "cures" old age or not, but it doesn't in my campaign).
4. Heaven (etc.) is very nice for just about anyone. No matter which god you worship, when you die and move on to that god's realm, you tend to be happy you got there (not always true for those foolish enough to worship vile evil gods, though if they serve those gods well, their afterlife is pretty cushy too). Some people just don't want to come back once they sample the afterlife. This comes fairly close to "having a destiny" - if you cast raise dead on someone, they can refuse it; many people do refuse it unless they feel they have a reason to come back, such as fulfilling a destiny. (note: this is why PCs can't just kill the villain then resurrect him for interrogation - he will almost always prefer his afterlife to being resurrected and tortured, then probably killed again anyway - even if the PCs don't plan to torture or re-kill him, he will expect them to do that, or imprison him, and will refuse the resurrection).
5. There are ways to capture a soul. A captured soul cannot be resurrected. The magic needed is not really much harder to come by than the magic to cast resurrection. Therefore, an assassin who kills a farmer will probably just stab him, or poison him, or maybe decapitation (raise dead won't work in this case) - that should be enough. But high-level assassins who take contracts on wealthy merchants, priests, nobility, royalty, etc., will usually plan ahead with soul-capturing magic (it's all covered in the fee they require to take the job). Thus, the assassinated king cannot usually be resurrected until the soul is freed from its imprisonment - this can be a truly epic quest indeed, if the assassin is resourceful enough (and any assassin who accepts a contract on a king better be very, very resourceful indeed).
6. Story reasons. Maybe he's a ruthless tyrant king and the only church around with priests high enough level to True Resurrect him from the assassin who stabbed him and dumped him in a bag of holding full of lye refuses to do it because he was hated and feared. Maybe in some other story, the priest casts the spell but the god refuses it because the dead guy lived a life that is against the ideals of that god's faith - no resurrection for the wicked (or no resurrection for the wimpy, scholarly sage if you ask a priest of Kord to cast the spell). There can be bazillions of reasons to have the priests refuse to cast the spell, or have their spell fail due to godly whim, all justified by the existing story. You can even incorporate long arduous quests to raise a dead party member - the only churches in town won't resurrect your dead rogue becuase he's a kinda vicious guy so you have to quest to some far away church in a far away land to find a priest who appreciates your rogue's viciousness enough to raise him.

Summary:
In order to be resurrected, you need to be fairly wealthy and fairly well connected to know someone who can cast the spell and be able to pay for the component. Otherwise death is permanent.
And you need to die a clean death with an intact recoverable corpse, or you need even more wealth and connection to pay for the bigger spells' components. Otherwise death is permanent.
If you want to live forever, you also need magic to counteract aging, or one day you'll die of old age and be beyond any hope of resurrection.
And even you can afford it and can find someone to cast the spell, you just might like your afterlife enough to refuse the resurrection even if it is cast.
Assassins who take contracts against victims who have enough wealth and connections will come prepared to capture their victim's soul to prevent resurrection.

Given all that, I don't see why we need arbritrary and silly proclamations that raising the dead requires some mystical "destiny" at all.
 
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robertliguori said:
Let's wait until we see the rules for destiny. If we see nonsense similar to the nonsense from Saga, then we can toss this into the continuing pile of DOA D&D rules across editions.

(Or, optionally, have religious ceremonies in which people ritually pledge to serve their god for some number of years and therefore have Unfinished Business if they die before their time.)

If destiny is simply something the DM assigns to characters arbitrarily ("Yeah, sorry, Bob, you have a destiny of Destruction, so you get a -2 to your attack rolls for 24 hours for resolving that border skirmish peacefully.") then this is beyond stupid.
Doesn't have much to do with raise dead, but this really irks me.

I can only assume you've done nothing more than give the Saga Edition destiny rules a passing glance at best, or are relying on second-hand knowledge considering how ill-informed this view on SWSE's Destiny Mechanics are, especially the specific example.

It's quite possible for someone with a Destruction destiny to not be penalized for resolving a border skirmish peacefully, and might even be rewarded for moving one step closer to their destiny if by peacefully resolving that skirmish they gain the allies needed to help them destroy the Big Evil Cult that they are destined to destroy. Obi-Wan had a Destiny to get Luke started on the Jedi path (Education), but wasn't penalized because he withheld certain key truths from Luke (namely, his father's real fate), which by your rather literal reading of the Destiny mechanics he should have been.
 

Dausuul said:
And if you got sent to the Nine Hells and are now burning in agony, you'd rather stay there, too?

Presumably, the LE bad guy knew where he was going already so it's not like there are any surprises. And yes, maybe he wants out. Recurring villains can be like that. But, if he's a major villain, he might have already made arrangements to satisfy his ambitions... and working your way up the devil chain certainly takes ambition.
 

Dausuul said:
And if you got sent to the Nine Hells and are now burning in agony, you'd rather stay there, too?

Good people go to nice places.

Neutral people go to nice places that are different from where good people go, but very nice to the neutral person's outlook.

Evil people go to scary places, but if they served their god well in life, then they tend to be put in charge of the scary place, given some power and authority, given an afterlife that really appeals to their evil nature.

Those roasting in the agonizing fires of the Nine Hells are those who failed their god and are being punished, or those who were evil without serving an evil god (say, a succubus came to the material plane, tricked a guy into evil deeds, then he died, all without ever choosing an evil god to serve).

But it's safe to say that nobody chooses to worship any evil god for a few dozen years if the end result is an eternity of hellfire.

Evil gods reward their faithful followers because they want to have faithful followers.

In a D&D world where Speak With Dead, Resurrection, Planar Travel, and Scrying exist, nobody has to take anything on faith. If worshipping Hextor means eternity in hellfire, then all the worshippers will know this. Hextor cannot trick them (well, maybe the weak, simple, evil masses, but the leaders and priests will be able to use those spells and find out what their fate is going to be).

But yes, your original question was valid. If you did fail your evil god, or end up in hellfire some other way, and resurrection was offered to you, you would certainly take it. That just doesn't happen very often. The kind of evil guy who is likely to receive a resurrection is also likely to be well rewarded in the Nine Hells. The kind of evil guy who is roasting in hellfire is not very likely to receive a resurrection in the first place.
 

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