Raise Dead now costs 5000 GP!

hong LOL

I don't really care much one way or the other in a home campaign - usually the DMs and players can come to a consensus about character death, party wealth, and the balance between "right, time to make another character" and "Joe's back, baby, and he's packin' heat. Well, 10% less heat, to be precise...."

For a Living Campaign (especially Living Greyhawk which has, in my experience anyway, been even more cash-poor than it is XP-poor) this change is problematic.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


So it going back to cost it did in first edition? So what. Stick another quarter into the game and get an extra life.
Hong and others have come up with reasons so Joe Commoner can’t get raised every time he falls under the plow. You forget one reason Joe does not want to come back. In you in heaven gee no bills, no motor cars, and easy life with out the old lady or having to pay taxes. If the other place, I escape having to play in Abyss Accordion choir for a few years but Asmo is going to remember I cut practice and will not be happy when I return. He will probably stick me in the kids recorder section and bend my thumbs backward.

You could create a new character if you buy the big one. Takes a little longer than first edition but that is option. I have seen people take an hour to create a character in first so time wise it evens out.

I don’t mind a RS check. Why. I only saw them fail 8 times in twenty years of gaming. And I never pull punches imc but would allow raises if you could pay.

It does not matter how cheap, easy, hard, expensive the spell costs. The gamer will decide if he is attached to his character he will pony up the gold. Some players come to play and want to reload the same character. Others welcome the change of characters death bring them. A few cry literally even if the character takes five points of damage.

So stick me in the fire camp of letting characters getting raised and often. I can always come up with new and interesting ways of killing your character off.
 

Given that raise dead spells are possible:

If I have to guard someone for a long journey/quest, and I'm high enough level (or have a cleric) I could simply kill him, and have him Raised or True Ressurected afterwards. Or opt not to heroiclly risk my own life to save that of my charge. After all, death has no sting.

Surely in a world were such magicks were easily attained, "murder" would not carry as much of a stigma as it does in RL.

There are some real issues here, that need to be worked out for your campaign. DMs need to be able to make things fit. If a cheap (or no-cost) raise dead can work for you; hey that's great. Just leave me out of it, please.

As for those that whine "I'll lose a month of XP just to make up the difference", I say: not true.

The 3.5e system of XP awards is different than 3.0e. If you are lower level, you gain more XP per encounter. In fact, given a resonable scenario or two, you'll be back up to average party level in no time.
 

Liolel said:
Ouch just Ouch. Remind me to never die, I don't think that if you sell every last peice of equipment on my body that with the half price it would barely equal 5000. So I'll be suffering a level loss and loosing all my good equipment. A new character is cheaper.

LOL!

Don't ever die! There...

Death should hurt, I mean, come on, it's DEATH! Rather pathetic that a PC would rather die than have his sword sundered...

PS
 

This is hardly a problem unique to Raise Dead.

At level 1, Detect Poison starts to make murder mysteries work differently.

At level 1, Endure Elements makes the "man against the elements" story difficult to pull off.

At level 1, Detect Evil makes some plots difficult for some DMs to pull off.

At level 3, Zone of Truth makes some mysteries harder to pull off.

At level 3, Invisibility makes sneaky stuff much less of a challenge

At level 3, Make Whole makes non-magical object centered adventures hard to pull off. (Our boat has a hole in the bottom; how are we going to get off this island now? Make Whole. We've got to protect the priceless glass sculpture while being attacked by summoned bison! Make Whole).

At level 3, Locate object makes a lot of recovery and mystery adventures work differently too.

At level 3, Augury can make some puzzles or challenges obsolete. When confronted by a group of strange jars in one adventure, my party wasn't sure whether we should destroy them, take them with us, or leave them alone and do our best to collapse the entrance to the temple where they were so that no-one else could ever find them. An Augury revealed that smashing them would be a REALLY REALLY bad idea and thus saved our party from certain death.

At level 5, Speak With Dead really changes the way murder mysteries work.

At level 7, Discern Lies makes a lot of mysteries hard to pull off. (+12 sense motive scores, +22 search scores, and +17 spot scores also cause difficulties in this regard).

At level 7, Scrying makes a lot of adventures work differently.

At level 7, Divination makes nearly all adventures work differently.

At level 9, Raise Dead (3e cost) changes the way murder mysteries work yet again. It also changes the way protection missions work.

At level 9, Teleport changes the way lots of adventures work. We've got to kill the evil general? Scry, Buff, teleport in, kill, teleport out. We need to get this package from Wintershiven to Rel Mord in a week through bandit infested territory while dodging the agents of people who want war between Nyrond and The Pale at every turn? We'll Teleport there.

If you're going to DM D&D at all, you have to come to terms with the fact that some challenges are suited only for characters without certain magics. And that it's possible to design adventures that are only solvable if you assume the use of certain magics. When 2/3 of the classes have magic, you should expect "how well the players can manipulate the PH spell selection" to be a vital part of "good detective work." (In fact, many DMs would be grateful to have players who saw the non-combat options of magic instead of simply having their spellcasters be walking artillery platforms/first aid stations). If you want a game where magic doesn't enter into good detective work or what plots are available to the DM, you should be playing something other than D&D.

green slime said:
Because it disrupts the versimilitude of my game? Because none of the other examples listed actually cause any player expectations as to how ordinary people live their lives? Because there is then no logical reason why even the moderately wealthy die young? Because so many plot devices and adventures become completely pointless, or at best contrived and ludicrous, after a certain level.

You can't have a murder mystery, without involving magic in the murder, and once you involve magic, any use of logic flys out the window. Thus the solution of the murder relies not upon the use of logic (as a good detective story) but on how well the player can manipulate the PHB spell section.

And, incidentally, as long as the DM actually gives thought to how the NPCs did what they did, it's not true that "once you involve magic, any use of logic flys out the window." If you make sure that the NPCs have the ability to do what they did, your players may end up saying things like, "Well, the dog was barking outside but the neighbor didn't see anything smash the window. So we know that, whatever killed the merchant was probably invisible. Now, as far as we know, many wizards, priests of trickery gods, bards, and skilled assassins from the Greyhawk guild can do that. So can more ordinary thieves with scrolls. Now, in the Theocracy of the Pale, all arcane spellcasters must register with the church and, when we checked we know that there are only 20 registered arcanists in the city of Holdworthy (present company excepted) and they were all at the Arcanist's guild last night. It could have been an unregistered arcanist, but since Griswold was killed by some kind of shortword--and it was a very precise strike right to the carotid artery, the unregistered arcanist would have to be some kind of dilletante skilled with weaponry and sneak attacks as well. There was no indication that Griswold was involved with any cults and there was no indication of religious ritual on the body, so it probably wasn't an evil priest. From the markings on the window, the murderer wasn't able to pick the lock so it probably wasn't the Greyhawk Assassin's guild--they'd be more competent. So our best bet is probably some kind of unregistered dilletante wizard or a rogue using scrolls of invisibility. Let's head out to the city and find out who might have been buying scrolls or spell components recently--probably from the underworld since the Arcanist's guild storehouse only serves its members. We might check the jewelers' too--if he can cast spells of the third circle, he might well ward himself from divinations with nondetection and that requires Diamond dust."

It seems to me that logic can operate quite well in conjunction with magic as long as the magic in the world operates according to a stable system that is relatively well known to the players. In fact, players can do CSI style analysis of magical and aligned auras and the spells used at the crime scene.
 

3d6 said:
The problem with that is you tend to have a session or two where one player may as well not show up as you quest for his ressurection.

Anything that's not fun is bad by default.

There's a d20 adventure pack that's 4 raise dead adventures. The dead player takes on an important NPC character and everyone goes on a quest for the dead guy.

Looked kind of interesting, but I can't remember the publisher off the top of my head.

PS
 

Nail said:
Given that raise dead spells are possible:

<snip>

"murder" would not carry as much of a stigma as it does in RL.

Nor would the death penalty.

(Hence my quip about Habeas Corpus, but I guess no-one reads 1066 and All That any more.)

Is anyone else reminded of the Jack Vance novel To Live Forever?

Regards,


Agback
 

It sounds interesting but it seems like that would only serve to exacerbate the negative impact of Raise Dead on party composition--namely the increasing level difference in the party.

Taking a hypothetical 8th level party of a fighter, a cleric, a rogue, a sorceror, and a bard, let's assume the bard dies. The party gains xp for that adventure and goes to the temple to ask about getting the bard raised. Quest time.

So the four PCs go with one "really important NPC" on a quest. No problem. Assuming the NPC is able to contribute to the action of the quest, the bard's player has fun. They finish the adventure, the four PCs and the NPC get experience and the bard is raised. Now, you most likely have a party with 4 9th level characters and one 7th level character--a character who is significantly weaker and is most likely the next character to die as well. If the party was not equal in xp at first--say a 9th level fighter, a 7th level rogue, 8th level cleric, 9th level sorceror, 7th level bard and the bard died, he most likely comes back at 6th level when the rest of the party is 8th-10th level. The 4 level spread in the party will make it even more challenging to construct encounters in which the bard can contribute.

Now, OTOH, if the PC is raised before the party goes on the quest, at least the level difference isn't exacerbated any more than necessary.

Storminator said:
There's a d20 adventure pack that's 4 raise dead adventures. The dead player takes on an important NPC character and everyone goes on a quest for the dead guy.

Looked kind of interesting, but I can't remember the publisher off the top of my head.

PS
 

Storminator said:


There's a d20 adventure pack that's 4 raise dead adventures. The dead player takes on an important NPC character and everyone goes on a quest for the dead guy.

Looked kind of interesting, but I can't remember the publisher off the top of my head.

PS

Raise the Dead by Necromancer games.


Aaron
 

Remove ads

Top