Raise Dead now costs 5000 GP!

[Gizzard]

Try playing a higher level game where Death happens more often. When you have a 4 player group and you have 1-2 characters die per game session, How Dramatic is that? What happens to story continuity when after 5-6 games you've cycled through all of the Original Characters?

Two thoughts:

1) On continuity: I think we all agreed that D&D is deadly at both high levels and very low levels. So your DM has to deal with this issue from the very beginning of the game - some 1st & 2nd level characters are probably going to die and there won't be any money to Raise them. Additionally, their death isn't going to mean a whole heck of a lot: "The orc hits you for ... um ... 22." Maintaining contunuity is a problem the DM should have a handle on.

2) On the meatgrinder: You mention losing multiple characters per session and Hong mentions playing the notorious RttTOH as examples of how many high-level characters can die. It sounds like both of you are playing meatgrinder style modules. This type of module is not for everyone; take a look at all the threads from DMs saying, "Help, my players are all dying and not having fun." It's not a function of whether Raise costs 500G or 5000G; even at 500G the fun of going "Fight, Die, Raise" starts to wear thin. Moreso, meatgrinders are certainly not for people who spend lots of time on character backgrounds when they should be munchkinizing their characters instead. ;-)

2a) Additionally, these 3E meatgrinders were surely designed with the 3E Raise costs in mind. Under 3.5E it's no surprise that they'd require some tweaking. And, as I mention earlier, that there are people who will not find this fun regardless of how much tweaking the DM or module designer does.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It should be noted that maintaining versimilitude in replacement characters differs greatly at high and low levels. Before 4th level, you can easily posit a farmboy looking for revenge on his family's killers, a runaway wizard's apprentice, a mendicant priest, or a deserter joining the party. There are plenty of appropriately levelled people out there.

By the high end of mid levels, however, there can only be so many "greatest knights in the kingdom." After a few vacancies in the round table have been filled, one will begin to wonder where all these great knights have been coming from.

And at high levels, the versimilitude involved in character replacement becomes even more problematic. Sepulchrave's story hour is probably extreme in this regard but imagine the difficulties with replacing Mostin. The PCs know the names of most wizards of his caliber. Making a former NPC a PC would be possible but there simply aren't many unknown wizards of Mostin and Shomei's caliber. Similarly, replacing Nwm or Eadric would be highly problematic. The problem can also be illustrated in the more familiar world of Greyhawk. If the PCs are of similar power to the Circle of 8, there just aren't replacements waiting around out there. Now, characters with ECLs might be one alternative--have a hound archon paladin join the group, or a Githerazai monk, or a troll barbarian, or even a dragon of some kind or other. However, that option would also stretch versimilitude if it were used often. A party of a Half celestial, a dragon, a troll, and a devil on the path of redemption would begin to look a bit silly.

Two thoughts:

1) On continuity: I think we all agreed that D&D is deadly at both high levels and very low levels. So your DM has to deal with this issue from the very beginning of the game - some 1st & 2nd level characters are probably going to die and there won't be any money to Raise them. Additionally, their death isn't going to mean a whole heck of a lot: "The orc hits you for ... um ... 22." Maintaining contunuity is a problem the DM should have a handle on.

 

[Anubis]

Well my costs were for having NPCs perform the act, not for PCs casting it.

I am just looking for a way to make raising the dea an uncommon (or even rare) thing while making PCs using true resurrection after every encounter realistic.

What excuse does anyone have for NOT having someone raised? I can try to force the "your character doesn't want to come back" line so many times. It's especially hard when some NPCs wanna stay dead for different reasons and such, and it's a double standard that some others will be raised. Makes no sense. I can't figure out a single way to balance everything.

I would remove revival things altogether, but then what does one do about instant death spells? I think these abilities are far too important top monsters to just dismiss.

The only possible solution I have ever come up with is that NPC clerics simply will refuse to raise people most of the time unless the religion is the same AND a quest is performed, or something like that.

 

[Gizzard]

And at high levels, the versimilitude involved in character replacement becomes even more problematic. Sepulchrave's story hour is probably extreme in this regard but imagine the difficulties with replacing Mostin.

Well, that gets into my second point. Sep is not running a meatgrinder campaign. Or the sort of campaign where Mostin's player is going to throw a fit and say "I just can't play Mostin if he's only 22nd level instead of 23rd" if he were to get killed for that matter. ;-)

So, 500G or 5000G or even 25000G is pretty irrelevant; if Mostin died everyone would come up with the cash to get him Ressed or else the Paladin's temple would step in.

People aren't complaining about the effects of high level characters dying once; they're complaining about the effects of high level players dying a lot. To which I say - if your high level character is dying every other session you've got more problems than 5000G is going to fix. If you enjoy playing meatgrinders, go forth and prosper. But meatgrinders are a tricky animal, and one that trips up a lot of gaming groups. Changing the price of Raise Dead puts a dent in this style of gaming, but its really more a problem with the Meatgrinder as an art form rather than whether Raise Dead costs any particular amount.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

People aren't complaining about the effects of high level characters dying once; they're complaining about the effects of high level players dying a lot. To which I say - if your high level character is dying every other session you've got more problems than 5000G is going to fix. If you enjoy playing meatgrinders, go forth and prosper. But meatgrinders are a tricky animal, and one that trips up a lot of gaming groups. Changing the price of Raise Dead puts a dent in this style of gaming, but its really more a problem with the Meatgrinder as an art form rather than whether Raise Dead costs any particular amount.

problem is with the damage outputs of many monsters and NPC classes and save or die effects, even in a soft ball campaign its very easy fo people to die very session. Fail a save you're dead, one full attack and you're dead. Heck with some classes you make your save vs some damaging effect and your still dead.

Now if you don't have combats very often or your combats are against masses of much weaker foes then maybe death will be less common. But death is very easy in 3e, no matte rhow soft you play it.

 

[Yobgod Ababua]

In the game I'm currently playing in, and in the one I recently finished running, I saw two problems that I believe this change will help alleviate:

1) The well-meaning PC cleric would constantly offer to raise any NPCs that were accidently killed in the course of the story. The cost was low enough, even for a low-mid level cleric, that they could afford to do so. Not really a story breaker, but it definately made the world seem odd. The corrolary was that a moderately wealthy NPC could fairly easily have a considerable number of followers raised, which messes with many standard plotlines unless all plot related deaths suddenly involve death effects or missing corpses. Increasing the expense helps this considerably.

2) Around 12th level the PCs save enough money for a true ressurection or two and cease to have a real fear of death.

Overall the former rules and costs ended up creating a world where, without severe DM intervention, everyone (PC or NPC) had a fairly cavalier attitude towards death. With the increased costs, the DM can more easily explain why every well-off NPC doesn't show up again a week later, while still allowing PCs to come back and keep playing (slightly more in debt to the local church if neccessary). It's much easier to come up with a reason why the PCs (or an important NPC) will get a loan for their restoration to life when needed than to explain why everyone else isn't doing it constantly.

even in a soft ball campaign its very easy fo people to die very session.

Not if your DM is doing his job properly. I've been involved in two long-running 3e games that are not by any means "softball", yet there have only been maybe 5 player deaths in over a year of playing. There's usually a near death or two every session, but actual deaths only happen when a player does something stupid -and- gets unlucky.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Not knowing Sep or his campaign firsthand, I can't say anything for sure, but I think your justified appreciation for his campaign is clouding your perception of its lethality. I'm not certain how many sessions the story hours posted represent but in the last few there have actually been quite a few character deaths that strike me as non-preplanned.

Ortwin has died twice, Tarl the Incorruptible died, and now Shomei has also died. I suspect that adds up to something like an average of one death per five sessions--not a meatgrinder but still quite deadly. And you would also do well to note that, strictly speaking, the price of Raise Dead/etc spells is irrelevant in that campaign since it's considered blasphemous--all recoveries so far have been with Reincarnate or variants thereof.

And, I think it will be very interesting to see what happens in the next few updates of Sep's story hour. Now that Ortwin has lost all his gear and Shomei has lost a lot of hers, I suspect we'll begin to see how hampered characters of those levels are by the lack of gear.

Now, I suspect that more "standard" campaigns might experience even more significant hampering effects once the gear-deprivation begins to add up.

Well, that gets into my second point. Sep is not running a meatgrinder campaign. Or the sort of campaign where Mostin's player is going to throw a fit and say "I just can't play Mostin if he's only 22nd level instead of 23rd" if he were to get killed for that matter. ;-)

So, 500G or 5000G or even 25000G is pretty irrelevant; if Mostin died everyone would come up with the cash to get him Ressed or else the Paladin's temple would step in.

People aren't complaining about the effects of high level characters dying once; they're complaining about the effects of high level players dying a lot. To which I say - if your high level character is dying every other session you've got more problems than 5000G is going to fix. If you enjoy playing meatgrinders, go forth and prosper. But meatgrinders are a tricky animal, and one that trips up a lot of gaming groups. Changing the price of Raise Dead puts a dent in this style of gaming, but its really more a problem with the Meatgrinder as an art form rather than whether Raise Dead costs any particular amount.

 

[Gizzard]

Ortwin has died twice, Tarl the Incorruptible died, and now Shomei has also died. I suspect that adds up to something like an average of one death per five sessions--not a meatgrinder but still quite deadly. And you would also do well to note that, strictly speaking, the price of Raise Dead/etc spells is irrelevant in that campaign since it's considered blasphemous--all recoveries so far have been with Reincarnate or variants thereof.

I believe Shomei is an NPC. I don't recall Tarl, so I suspect he was an NPC as well?

It's interesting to discuss Sepulchrave's campaign, since its obviously a benchmark - the sort of campaign people aspire to run. In any case, over all the time of the story hour there have been very few PC deaths. If I recall Mostin, Nwm, Eadric and Ortwin are the original 4 PCs. They're all still around, Ortwin even more Ortwin than ever in his new form. This despite "broken" spells like Time Stop, Horrid Wilting and Finger of Death being thrown around with abandon. Also despite, as you point out, Sep's house rules on Raises.

It's certainly not a "meatgrinder" campaign in the way RttToH or CotSQ supposedly are.

Now, IMHO, there are a couple things going on here. First, Sep is experienced enough to know how to match his party to the challenges they face. And his players are experienced enough not to get in over their heads.

The danger rate has increased a lot in the last few sessions, but that's not a function of the party's level. First up, Sepulchrave has thrown some new monsters at the party and discovered the hard way that their CRs were off (the Chimera.) Second, the players have decided to step into the way of danger, they have moved away from the home that they understand and are now out in uncharted territory with an insanely powerful foe opposing them.

Anyway, my original point was more that the people complaining about dying many times seemed to be playing meatgrinders. Since Sep has managed to run a successful campaign up into Epic Levels without allowing Raise Dead or Ressurections, I take that as proof that high levels don't automatically equal a collosal death rate. And, extending from that, that the 5000G fine for dying is still a minor penalty.

-edit-
Digression: Back to the original thought; I don't see the material cost of Raise Dead making much difference in anyone's Story Hour that I read. I haven't read any CotSQ or RttToH Story Hours (because I dont want spoilers!) but they might be interesting subjects for research on how the cost change would affect PCs. Ie, can someone point out a Story Hour where it would make a difference whether Resses were 5000G or 25000G? And, if not, does that mean that it's not going to be as big a deal as people are worried about?

 

[Celtavian]

re

I plan to turn the gold cost into an offering. The PC will have to offer the same amount of gold in objects valuable to the particular deity. It will be an offering to the deity to intervene on behalf of their mortal follower and call back the dead person. That will work better for story.

 

[mmu1]

Digression: Back to the original thought; I don't see the material cost of Raise Dead making much difference in anyone's Story Hour that I read. I haven't read any CotSQ or RttToH Story Hours (because I dont want spoilers!) but they might be interesting subjects for research on how the cost change would affect PCs. Ie, can someone point out a Story Hour where it would make a difference whether Resses were 5000G or 25000G? And, if not, does that mean that it's not going to be as big a deal as people are worried about?

Not a story hour, but based on my experiences running CotSQ it'd likely completely disrupt the module if it was run as written, because of a)Not enough loot to pay 5000gp per Raise Dead, b)No place to acquire 5000gp worth of diamond dust without Teleport (or to sell the items found, really) and c)The situation being specifically set up to make leaving the "dunegon" very difficult later in the module.