Raise Dead now costs 5000 GP!

hong and I agree on something...the world gets weirder every day :D .

Back to the argument:

This complaint (and to an extent many of your others) seem to skirt the main issue which is a flawed combat system

Ah, the old baby-with-the-bathwater argument. You see, you can't change *one* part of the system, without changing the other parts without making it incoherent. A system is a system- you can change the whole, but tinkering with little bits is likely to mess things up. Reducing hit poins tenfold but keep damage identical is clearly stupid. Keeping combat deadly but increasing raising costs tenfold is likewise stupid.

At lower levels D&D is, if anything, even more deadly

Let's deconstruct this...

Any critical will kill most PCs - optimized or not

You know very well that's nonsense. See hong. HPs can scale very quickly, so unless the PCs are very very low level, roll abysmal hp rolls, or face extreme damage monsters, this is unlikely to kill them.

The trick about hp at low level is that the 'death's door' range is proportionately *much more* at low levels than at higher levels. At low levels, 10 hp is a nice safety blanket to ensure you go down rather than dead. At high levels, 10 hps is nothing- and since characters lose no combat efficacy from low hps, it's quite easy to knock someone from low positive hps to death; at lower levels, it tends to go from low positive to dying.

Saving throws suck

So do the DCs. In fact, saves are more often made at lower levels than higher levels, since DCs tend to rise faster than poor saves in particular.


Low to-hit rolls. Again, the fighter's primary attack is much more likely to hit at high level than at low level.

bad Spot levels

Bad Hide levels! Again, since Spot is cross-class for most classes; and Hide is class for hiding classes, and more likely to be magically augmented, hiding is far more weighted towards the hider at the higher levels.

lack of compensating magic

Lack of offensive magic/offensive buffs/disabling magic/instakills. Low magic is patently less deadly than high magic, irrespective of 'compensating magic'.

lack of Feats

...by both sides.

Notice a pattern? You assert rightly that lower level characters have less defense, but they have to put up with far less *offense*, so the overall equation favours defense far more at low level than high level.

3.5 has nerfed most of the remaining instant-kills

Most being two...and Harm is still pretty respectable in terms of damage. 10hps/level is not to be sneezed at.

At the level you are complaining about (high-level) the cost of the spell is of little real consequence

10% of a PC's total assets is hardly of 'little real consequence'- particularly since, as E_B points out, most of a PC's assets are not liquid, so when he liquidates them he only gets half.

And the only people who are really hurt--people like me who would rather keep their PCs than roll up a new one.

Nicely put.

How common is death?

Silly question. Sensible question: how common is resurrection? Even at 500gp, that's hardly commonplace. Particularly since 9th level clerics can only be found in small cities or, very rarely, in large towns.

A previous poster supposed a 10% tax on all incomes as a way of estimating the revenues of the king.

In all honesty, the precise % doesn't matter- 10% was just a figure I plucked out of the air. Irrespective of the precise sum, the point that very rich nobility can still afford raising stands.

(Still OT):As I read the text of the spell, you must be a nasty EVIL cleric of or some outer planar entity, or undead. I take the Evil creature line to mean a creature with the type [Evil]...

[OT]: Nope. Any 'Evil creature' radiates evil, even at just a faint level. Since only evil creatures radiate evil, *any* radiation implies that the character is evil, irrespective of strength.
 

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If they want PC cleric's to do more of the raising, why do they want the PC to fork over 5000 to raise their fellow comrade, who may or may not be a member of their religious orginazation? I know that in my group, Raise Dead sees about as much use as the bottom side of a refrigerator. Character dies, there is usually a new character that is introduced, usually because there is no access to raising, at higher levels its the same. Apparently the revolving door that they think is so common is stuck in my group as you only have 1 life to give, give that and next. Even the BBEG's never come back for a repeat performance.
 

re

Personally, I like the change because I don't want PC's coming back. I would prefer if they just stayed dead unless using a Miracle spell.

The guys I game with aren't willing to take it this far just yet. They are usually pretty cool about adopting rules changes, so I don't press this one.

I am glad that it is officially more difficult to return from the dead. Its not that I like characters to die, its just if they do, I want it to mean something.

When death becomes like getting the flu or a minor disease, how can it be important?

"Tom just died. Ahh, damn. Now we have to go back and get him raised from the dead. Oh well, that'll take a few days out of our adventuring time."

What kind of drama is there in the above view of death?
 

Re: re

Of course, the change doesn't change that perspective on death in the slightest. It just changes the material cost of the spell. In principle, there is not necessarily any drama in it (at least, I don't think "bringing Bob back from the dead costs so much money; how can we possibly afford it?" is the kind of drama you're looking for--whether it's analagous to an affordable or an expensive operation, it's still analogous to a medical operation); in practice, there is exactly as much drama as the DM and players add to the spell (like many DMs, I dramatically changed the way the spell worked in one campaign to reflect a spiritual and metaphysical world that differed substantially from that assumed in the core rules)--just like before the cost was increased.

Celtavian said:
When death becomes like getting the flu or a minor disease, how can it be important?

"Tom just died. Ahh, damn. Now we have to go back and get him raised from the dead. Oh well, that'll take a few days out of our adventuring time."

What kind of drama is there in the above view of death?
 

Re: re

Celtavian said:
Personally, I like the change because I don't want PC's coming back. I would prefer if they just stayed dead unless using a Miracle spell.

The guys I game with aren't willing to take it this far just yet. They are usually pretty cool about adopting rules changes, so I don't press this one.

I am glad that it is officially more difficult to return from the dead. Its not that I like characters to die, its just if they do, I want it to mean something.

When death becomes like getting the flu or a minor disease, how can it be important?

"Tom just died. Ahh, damn. Now we have to go back and get him raised from the dead. Oh well, that'll take a few days out of our adventuring time."

What kind of drama is there in the above view of death?

Try playing a higher level game where Death happens more often. When you have a 4 player group and you have 1-2 characters die per game session, How Dramatic is that?

What happens to story continuity when after 5-6 games you've cycled through all of the Original Characters? Now you're just a group of thugs who've been together only a short period of time with no real history of sticking your necks out for each other. What happens to all the Magic Items that gets cycled into the party when people bring in new characters only to have them die in 3-4 sessions and then don't want to be raised?
 

Well, there's certainly a lot of debate on this topic. I have to say that all in all as a player and a GM, I like this change... though I wouldn't use it in my homebrew.

I know there's a lot of arguments on how deadly D&D is, but where I'm sitting, players don't die all that often. This is, obviously, just my experience and no one else's... but for me, it holds. When PC's die, I think it should be something powerful and unique that brings them back.

In my own homebrew, I won't use the extra cost because I don't believe that the dead character has much of a choice on if they're coming back or not. Sure... they can say 'no, I don't want to be raised' and stay dead, but I don't think I've ever seen that happen.

In my game, the burden of resurrection falls not on the deceased, but on the cleric. It's going to be a spiritual journey and a devotional path where you prove to your God that you require the services of the dead person enough that (s)he should be raised. There'll be a cost to the clerics (and I don't mean monetary)... and only to the deceased (and I do mean monetary) if the cleric so wishes. The dead person (probably) isn't even serving the God who will res him... so the God has very little need for him to be brought back.

But all in all, I think the 'high cost' mechanic is at least a step toward raise as I see it. YMMV.
 

I like this change, seeing as I already house ruled the following:

Raise Dead: 1000 gp/level of raised character
Resurrection: 5000 gp/level of raised character
True Resurrection: 10,000 gp/level of raised character

I don't think coming back from the dead should be easy, otherwise everybody would be doing it all the time! King dies? Bring him back! Major villain executed? Bring him back! People already come back plenty enough . . .
 

If raising the dead was too rampant in D&D they should have upped Raise Deas to 7th level and made the spells cost experience points.

The idea of players paying money to get raised is just stupid.
 

If they wanted to make resurrection special, increasing the monetary cost was the wrong thing to do. It's easy to get money, and you don't even have to be an adventurer-- you can levy taxes or run a business or sell your grandma into slavery. A monetary transaction feels too commonplace, and doesn't make the event any more dramatic.

Charging money is especially stupid, because if the DM wants to keep the party balanced against encounters of equivalent CR, he needs to replace the money they spent. A PC of level X should have possessions worth Y gold pieces in order to be balanced. If he dies and comes back, he has lost more than a level; he's lost a lot of the gear that made him competitive. The DM must either replace the gear (which means the gp cost of raising is irrelevant), or leave the raised PC in an even more weakened state. In dangerous encounters, the weakened PC is very likely to die again soon, which puts him on the slippery slope down to level 1.

I happen to think that losing a level is punishment enough. I know that if my Sor16 gets killed tomorrow, he won't gain that level back until approximately the end of August. (With our short sessions, we're lucky if we advance once per real-time month.) Everyone else IMC knows the same thing, so we're really paranoid about death, and we take it seriously when it occurs. Tacking on a ridiculously high monetary price to the raise spell will not change our attitude in the slightest, except to make us annoyed when we need to sell off and re-acquire magic items.
 

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