Raise Dead now costs 5000 GP!

[Metalsmith]

Then I guess you've never been in any type of near fatal accident.

I had to relearn how to walk when I was 15, even though I learned to walk when I was an infant. Funny how because of a simple injury (water skiing accident), I suddenly became "dumber" and had to relearn things.

I had a friend who was in a car accident about three years ago, and he is just now returning to complete fluency in English (which is his native tongue) and a 12th-grade reading level.

And remember... neither of us died and returned to life, so I'd say that our experiences were somewhat less harrowing and traumatic than DEATH would be.

So, in summation, it makes perfect sense for a character that is brought back from the dead to be weaker.

Not to dismiss your horrible accident, but....

Are Either of you a 10+ Level Fighter, Wizard, Cleric or Rogue?

This is a Fantasy Game.

The Payrolls and Paychecks Game(tm) is being held somewhere over there. (points)

Most of the Dissenting posts are not concerned about the level loss. But instead of the Combined effects of Level loss and the Massive hit on their pocketbooks. It's just eaiser to make a new character than to get the old one raised.

 

[brehobit]

10% is a "gentle" tax take by modern standards (most advanced countries take over 45% when you take all tiers of government into account and include indirect taxes). But it is not "gentle" by ancient, mediaeval, or even early modern standards.

In mediaeval England there were no taxes in the normal course of things. Taxes were levied only on special occasions such as wars and the knighting of the King's sons and the marriage of his daughters. In the normal course of things that King was expected to run the government out of the income of his own estates. That is gentle taxation!

Agback

I've been reading a fair amount about this. I think you are ignoring the huge number of fees and restrictions on the lower classes (serfs and the like) For them, the "tax rate" could be quite high. They had often had to use their lord's mill (which was overpriced), had to pay to use the land, and had lots of small standard taxes to deal with. Not to mention required service that might run many weeks. Oh well, way off topic for the thread.....

 

[mmu1]

Then I guess you've never been in any type of near fatal accident.

I had to relearn how to walk when I was 15, even though I learned to walk when I was an infant. Funny how because of a simple injury (water skiing accident), I suddenly became "dumber" and had to relearn things.

I had a friend who was in a car accident about three years ago, and he is just now returning to complete fluency in English (which is his native tongue) and a 12th-grade reading level.

And remember... neither of us died and returned to life, so I'd say that our experiences were somewhat less harrowing and traumatic than DEATH would be.

So, in summation, it makes perfect sense for a character that is brought back from the dead to be weaker.

... which means that, since you didn't die, in a D&D game you and your friend would have been returned to perfect health with a couple of CLW spells. As long as you're still breathing, and no body parts have been removed, a D&D character comes back to perfect health, and can come back from worse through the use of Regenaration.

Which means that the lasting trauma from dying in D&D is a spiritual matter, not a physical one, and as such isn't really covered by your rationale.

 

[green slime]

OT: I still don't get why people think this solves the "problem." When I'm running games, it doesn't ruin anything precisely because it detects so many people that it isn't a substitute for Detect Bad Guy. Any of the 5000+ people in the city (of 15000 people) radiating evil could be the bad guy (assuming he's evil) or they could just be average goon/drugdealers. However, as soon as you say "it only detects EVIL", then it is Detect Bad Guy and it's pretty much a license to smite.

(Still OT):As I read the text of the spell, you must be a nasty EVIL cleric of or some outer planar entity, or undead. I take the Evil creature line to mean a creature with the type [Evil]...

So an Assassin isn't going to register. Which means that in a city of 5000+ you aren'ty going to run round randomly and detect evil. And if you do find it, You would have found it anyway even in your scenario, as the strength of the aura is rather strong...

And still it becomes difficult to justify in a court of law that the guy really was Evil. More proof of evil-doing would be required, IMC.

That problem has nothing to do with magic. It has to do with paranoia and the sense that the DM is not creating a world in which things are often as they seem but a world in which nothing can be trusted.

It's a question of the campaign's assumptions not its magic level.

While that is to a degree true, assassination is about politics. Political machinations in a game mean that little can be trusted. (Who shot JFK?) Mixing magic in makes it even harder to discern the real from the unreal, the plausible from the implausible, and fact from fiction.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I think it is relatively easy to die in D&D. Now staying permanently dead is another matter entirely.

My players hate to die, even if they are receiving a True Ressurection. If they die enough times, usually 3, they quit the character whether they liked the character or not.

I incorporated Hero Points into our game so that the players and the DM would have an option for averting death without resorting to the standard D&D method of dying and coming back to life. I look at hero points as story points, because they help the DM create a more convincing story by giving them carte blanche to come up with a reason why a person lived or something happened that should not even if it is as simple as saying the player clings to life due to strong will.

I hope D&D incorporates Hero Points into the standard game at some point in the future. They really are a boon because they help offset the times when a party is rolling very bad or a single unlucky 1 comes up.

 

[green slime]

How exactly does your Hero Point system work, Celtavian? I'm intrigued because I'm trying to find something similar. How many points does a player recieve? How often?

 

[Celtavian]

re

Players receive one point per level.

They are able to do the following:
1. Turn a killing hit into a blow that knocks them unconcious. 1 pt.

2. Turn a killing blow into a miss, they are able to stay concious and keep fighting. 2 pts.

3. Automatically succeed at a saving throw, skill check or ability check. 1 pt.

4. Automatically bypass SR or DR for one spell or one blow. 1 pt.

5. Gain a +10 unnamed bonus to attack. 1 pt.

6. Automatically land a single attack. 2 pts.

7. Increase the DC of a saving throw for a spell or similar abilty by +4. 1 pt.

8. Cause a being to fail its save. 2 pts.


Once spent they do not replenish. I kind of view them like the nine lives of a cat that they can spend on many different aspects of the game where making a roll might be crucial or to avoid death.

Since I have instituted this rule, it has really helped smooth out my games as far as story is concerned. Pesky 1's on saves for death spells that Player's should have made. The Player's can now avoid death if they get hammered by a crit, sometimes they remain standing and sometimes they choose to go unconcious because it is wiser to do so. A caster can beat the SR of a creature they are rolling poorly against. Basically, a way to survive or succeed when situations look dire.

They gain so few, that they are precious to the players and spent only when in dire need. I also give major villains that I want to be reoccurring villain points equal to half their level. I assume some of their points have been spent since villains usually start as higher levels as NPC's. I use a villain's points when I need them to survive or succeed at something to carry on the adventure.

I don't like arbitrary systems of divine intervention because then there are no built in limits to how far it can go save for DM decision. The Hero Point system puts a limit on the number of times a Player can experience divine grace or whatever a person might call it. It works well for our campaigns and helps smooth the story out when the randomness of rolls might interfere with it.

 

[Agback]

I've been reading a fair amount about this. I think you are ignoring the huge number of fees and restrictions on the lower classes (serfs and the like) For them, the "tax rate" could be quite high. They had often had to use their lord's mill (which was overpriced), had to pay to use the land, and had lots of small standard taxes to deal with. Not to mention required service that might run many weeks. Oh well, way off topic for the thread.....

You are forgetting the context. A previous poster supposed a 10% tax on all incomes as a way of estimating the revenues of the king. The fees that you are talking about never went anywhere near the royal exchequer. the king raised revenues of this sort from his own estates, but very little of this stuff went any further than the lord of the manor.

Besides which, only peasants who held land on the estate paid these dues. Landless labourers didn't pay them, not even the labour contributions. And townsfolk didn't pay them either. A peasant who held two virgates paid double, a peasant who held only half a virgate paid only half. These dues have the character of rent, not income tax.

A typical family in this country pays one third of their after-tax income in either rent or interest on a mortgage. We don't count that as part of the tax take.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Agback]

The primary problem I have with paying to return from death is why should any god care that you want to pay money to return from death?

Doesn't the same logic apply to any clerical spellcasting?

Gods actually do need money, because their churches need to be built and repaired, their clergy need to be salaried and pensioned, etc. etc. Apparently the gods who don't [delegate clerics to] dispense miracles don't get much in the way of offerings to cover these expenses.

Be that as it may, the price lists in the rules imply that clerical spell effects are available (maybe available only to cult members, but available at some level) to those who make offerings of spell level time caster level times 10 GP. Of course you may, if you wish, provide that in your campaign clerical spells are available only to registered initiates. If you do, most of your PCs will become initiates (and so will most NPCs). You may provide that they are only available to the pious. Most of your players will play their characters as very pious. Think what you want PCs to be like, then make the appropriate rulings for your world.

And let me endorse some clever predecessor's point: In a world where the living dead stalk the night; where magicians can sink a person into indefinite suspended animation in a stony cyst; where gods empower their clerics to Summon outsiders, Implode one target a round, and call down Flame Strike; where eighty-tonne fire-snorting reptiles soar across the skies--maybe in a world like that pulling some clown's soul out of the queue at the gates of the Underworld and sticking it back in its body is not such a biggie.

Why are we happy to suppose that society adapts itself to dragons and Glyphs of Warding, but not willing to suppose that it might adapt to Raise Dead?

Regards,


Agback

 

[green slime]

How common are Dragons and Glyphs of warding for everyman?

How common is death?