Raise Dead Questions?

[Aluvial]

I am curious to see how other DMs/Players handle Raise Dead in their campaigns.

I finally have a cleric that can cast 5th level spells and I don't want him using Raise Dead all willy nilly....

Granted their are penalties (XP) for being raised or ressurected but I feel like there should be some restrictions for PCs casting this spell.

How do you handle this spell in your game when cast by PCs?

Aluvial

 

[Pielorinho]

I am curious to see how other DMs/Players handle Raise Dead in their campaigns.

I finally have a cleric that can cast 5th level spells and I don't want him using Raise Dead all willy nilly....

Granted their are penalties (XP) for being raised or ressurected but I feel like there should be some restrictions for PCs cansting this spell.

How do you handle this spell in your game when cast by PCs?

Aluvial

There's a significant penalty for casting it: a 500gp diamond. Given that penalty, we allow its casting willy-nilly; one of the nice effects of it is that we're more willing to let the dice fall where they may in combat.

Daniel

 

[Keith]

I sympathize. Raise Dead is the worst part of D&D. Not just the spell (which is way too low level and inexpensive), but the whole concept as well. It makes most of the normal workings of a world fall apart if it is applied with some logic. On top of that it seems nearly impossible to reconcile with any type of religion PCs and NPCs might ascribe to. It is not that there are not other spectacular abilities, they just pale beside this one. I am thinking about not allowing it, as it does not fit in at all with my setting. However, it is very integral to the game, so in my view the players have to be offered some slack in other survival-related areas to compensate if you have no Raise Dead.

 

[Piratecat]

I disagree with Keith. I think Raise Dead is great. It can be used by large clerical churches to create infinite plot hooks. Here's a couple of ideas:

- Church doctrine prevents raising anyone who is not a member of that church. This may be due to divine decree, but is much more likely secular, the result of a church attempting to acquire worshippers. Any cleric who violates this decree is excommunicated, and any church who ignores it en masse is subject to a holy war. Interesting party hijinks ensue as the party cleric has to choose whether or not to raise a party member from a different religion.

Alternatively, the spell simply won't work on someone from a different religion.

- In order for the spell to work, the person's friends must make a promise to the God, each accepting a geas in exchange for the magic working. See Sagiro's storyhour for an excellent example of this.

- Societal pressure discourages it. Once someone has past beyond the gates of the dead, their taint is clear even if they've been brought back to life. They are generally feared by most people, due to an old myth (?) that death will stalk them until he brings them back.

And so forth. It certainly changes the stakes of an adventure from "stay alive" to "achieve your goals", but I personally think the latter is more rewarding, anyways.

 

[Dragongirl]

- In order for the spell to work, the person's friends must make a promise to the God, each accepting a geas in exchange for the magic working. See Sagiro's storyhour for an excellent example of this.

I like this idea. I don't think a raise dead should be plunking down some money and away you go. Should have to pay deep and also have to perform a service for the church.

 

[Keith]

Societal pressure preventing the use of Raise Dead works for me. I'll go with that one.

Any scenario where religions raise their dead followers- well, you'll have a population problem, for one thing, and no dead folk. So, I'm thinking, what is the religion about, exactly? I'm not aware of any for which life and death are not focal issues. Er, not that I want to open that up as a topic. My point is, just take what seems like a neat plot twist one step or a few years on, and you have the kind of unworkable situation I referred to.

Is it fun for the game? Sure. Can anyone convincingly portray a civilization that has defeated death? No, I say! I defy you to prove me wrong!
I'm just kidding...but it would take a lot more doing, I think, than a couple of plot hooks to deal with the ramifications of the routine reversal of death! Interesting topic, though.

Cheers!

 

[Utrecht]

Any scenario where religions raise their dead followers- well, you'll have a population problem, for one thing, and no dead folk. So, I'm thinking, what is the religion about, exactly? I'm not aware of any for which life and death are not focal issues. Er, not that I want to open that up as a topic. My point is, just take what seems like a neat plot twist one step or a few years on, and you have the kind of unworkable situation I referred to.

Except that you still have to come up with that 500gp diamond - so only the most "beloved" of followers are going to get a second chance making the population issue pretty much a non-issue.

 

[paqman]

Except that you still have to come up with that 500gp diamond - so only the most "beloved" of followers are going to get a second chance making the population issue pretty much a non-issue.

True, that is why I use Raise Dead/Resurect/True resurect as is. They are correctly balanced and never threw one of my games out of control or out of "ambiance". Do not forget the loss of level for a raise dead, it has quite an impact on players, they would not go recklessly, head down, into danger knowing they would be raised afterward.

When we are at the True resurection level of gaming, that's really not a problem to me, it is near epic level and bringing someone back from the dead at full strenght is part of the truelly powerfuls of the prime material plane.

But having the Raise be for the worshippers only or at the whim of the god (The god needs to acccept the raise if he feels it is in his etos, God of love would permit the raising of a dearly loved one, the god of war would accept the raising of a great general in face of battle,....) would be a good idea if you wish to restict it's use.

 

[Aluvial]

But having the Raise be for the worshippers only or at the whim of the god (The god needs to acccept the raise if he feels it is in his etos, God of love would permit the raising of a dearly loved one, the god of war would accept the raising of a great general in face of battle,....) would be a good idea if you wish to restict it's use.

This is the concept I want to explore more. I'm wondering if there are any rules on this.

So far this is the only thing I could find (and I believe I got it here some time ago). If you recognize this I would like to give the author credit.

Here it is....

Resurrection in the Campaign

In order to justify that even nobility and influential people DO die, there will be a certain amount of uncertainty in resurrection (and raise dead, etc.). For a character to come back from the dead, he must roll a Charisma check. The base DC of this check is 4, modified as indicated on the following table:

Base DC of resurrection check.....4

Person has died before.....+ 2 for each previous death

Cleric performing ritual is of same faith as person being raised.....- 2 AND minus the Cha bonus of priest

Person has lived quite piously and true to his faith.....- 2

Person has lived impiously, and/or paid little attention to matters of religion.....+ 4

Person has performed several great services for the faith of the cleric performing the ritual in the last several years......- 2

Person has performed numerous great services for the faith of the cleric performing the ritual in the last several years.....-4

Person has actively wronged or opposed the faith of the cleric performing the ritual in the last few years.....+ 4

Person has grievously wronged, or aggressively opposed the faith of the cleric performing the ritual in the last decade.....+ 8

Person is an atheist ....+ 8*(see note)

Cleric performing ritual is of an 'allied faith' to that of the person being raised.....minus the Cha bonus of priest

The faith of the cleric and that of the person being raised are ambivalent or neutral towards one another.....+ 4

Cleric performing ritual is of an 'opposed faith' to that of the person being raised.....+ 8

The faith of the cleric performing the ritual is actively an enemy of the faith of the person being raised......No chance of success

*Note that in the case of an atheist, not only is the DC modified by +8, but most clerics will be of a faith considered at the very least 'neutral or ambivalent' towards atheism, resulting in an additional +4 to the DC, for a total of +12. Also, many faiths are NOT ambivalent towards atheism, and in such cases the 'opposed faith' modifier is added as well. Atheism is not a good idea if you want the gods to be willing to return you to life. . .

Failure: This attempt cannot be 'retried.' Matters of the divine are not to be trifled with, and only one raise attempt can be made per death. One must choose wisely the priest to perform such a ritual the first time, for the gods simply won't even listen a second time. (Think of it as multiple attempts being viewed as 'badgering the gods,' something which is just never a very good idea.)

This system is not exactly what I had in mind but it is a start.

Aluvial

 

[Keith]

That is an interesting point about the cost. First that there is a price attached, and second that it is specifically a diamond. So, two things happen: the rich can avoid death while the poor cannot, and second, diamond miners and sellers now rule (figuratively and literally). There is no way anyone who is selling life after death is in any position other than total control. They almost rule the world now, and all they provide are engagement and wedding rings.

So now there is an object than can raise the dead, and an object subject to supply and demand, with a limited supply. Is it even possible for such an item to be worth only 500 GP? Absolutely not; it is completely impossible. Nations would rise and fall over the wealthy's collections of such gems. Everything else would be judged relative to them- they would never be measured against mere gold. The whole notion of the cost of this spell is completely untenable.

As for the other result, a society where the rich can return from death and the poor cannot, endorsed by the religious authority? I think you could count on a bit of a Reformation occurring, to say the least.

My point is mainly that this issue does not unbalance the game because of the very limited scope in which we usually play. Level loss frightens us as players, certainly, but it has nothing to do with whole cultures facing the reversal of death.