Raise Dead Questions?

[LostSoul]

Keith, just how available do you think 500gp diamonds are?

A note about the material component.

The fact that it is a diamond isn't important; it's the 500 gp cost. If diamonds are used for Raise Dead spells, you can bet that there will be some lying around for just this reason (especially in the church, just in case they need to raise someone right away). The size of the diamond isn't important, either, because supply and demand is going to force the price of small diamonds up until tiny diamonds are worth 500 gp. If the diamond is used up in the spell, sooner or later grains of diamonds are going to be worth 500 gp and that's all you're going to need to cast the spell.

Interesting how that works.

 

[Kraedin]

I have people casting raise dead willy-nilly in my campaign, and I've seen no problems from it.

 

[hong]

Exactly. I have been a DM for years and this spell has plagued countless campains that I've run. As soon as 9th level is achieved, the sense of danger is immediately ripped from the PCs

What strange game were you playing that losing a point of Con and making a resurrection survival roll were things that could be merrily disregarded?

and soon thereafter the campaign is constantly halted by PC being raised after succumbing to dangerous conditions/creatures.

What strange game were you playing that a campaign can be halted by PCs not being dead?

This version takes a level, but the problem remains, if your cleric is 9th level he can cast the spell and bring you back from whatever hell the PC belongs in.

IME nobody ever wants to lose a level, to the extent that these days the only revival spell that gets used in our high-level game is true res. Now it's true that some (or one) of the players is just a grade-A whinger, but the fact remains that level loss is a hefty penalty.

This one monumental point changes the way the game is even run. To truly kill a PC you have to destoy the body, and even that can be countered at later levels, especially with the rapid progression of charter levels. How many times has a PC of mine disregarded the body, with knowledge that the spirit remains linked to any part of the body.

So?

And yes, there are many ways the DM can counter the PCs but it is an effort that is born from desperation of trying to reinstill that respect of danger that should be present in the PC's actions and attitudes. In the end you are overcompensating for something

Indeed, it would appear that you are compensating for something.

that you shouldn't have allowed to get out of control in the first place.

When Yoda said "control, you must learn control", I don't think that's what he was referring to.

This is exactly the problem I am trying to solve now. I don't want my current campaign to degrade into the obvious traps that I've faced in past ventures. Again, with the rapid advancement of PC levels and the almost countless additions to maximize play, I feel the need to control this one aspect of my campaign.

There's that strange "control" word again.

I need more suggestions, or even definitive answers.

Stop being a control freak.


Hong "why, it's even worse than being a munchkin" Ooi

 

[hong]

I sympathize. Raise Dead is the worst part of D&D. Not just the spell (which is way too low level and inexpensive), but the whole concept as well. It makes most of the normal workings of a world fall apart if it is applied with some logic. On top of that it seems nearly impossible to reconcile with any type of religion PCs and NPCs might ascribe to. It is not that there are not other spectacular abilities, they just pale beside this one. I am thinking about not allowing it, as it does not fit in at all with my setting. However, it is very integral to the game, so in my view the players have to be offered some slack in other survival-related areas to compensate if you have no Raise Dead.

What I do for Britannia 3E:

The spells destruction, raise dead, reanimation, reincarnate and slay living are not available. Resurrection is available, and works as follows. A creature to be resurrected makes a level check (d20 + level/HD), against DC 10. Each previous time it has been resurrected increases the DC by 5, so the second attempt is at DC 15, the third at DC 20, etc. The presence of an expert healer (typically an NPC) confers a +2 circumstance bonus to the roll. It's practically impossible to raise someone who is not exceptional in some way; if the creature to be resurrected has any levels in an NPC class, the DC increases by 20. There are no level or Constitution penalties for being resurrected, but a creature that fails its level check is forever dead.

I may change the DC scaling if people are dying like flies at higher levels (we're averaging about 1 death per session in our 15th level game), but so far it seems to be working out fine.

 

[Geoff Watson]

If there were no Raise Dead/Ressurect/True Ressurection spells, you would have to change many things significantly.

All it takes is a little bit of bad luck for even a high level PC to die.
Unless the DM goes out of his way to make sure that never happens, which would either mean that every battle is a walkover(boring!), or he blatantly fudges (even worse!).

The level loss for Raise Dead or Ressurection is a huge penalty. Only when True Ressurection is available does death lose its sting.

Geoff.

 

[Eosin the Red]

My rule is - if you die, you are dead. Play smart. The two other DMs in my group use the same rule but one of them constantly tries to fudge for the players, after building mega whopping 20th level villians.

Actually, IMC evil was brought back by someone (a celestial-like being) being resurected. Players can choose to come back, but it aint alone and it aint good.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Remember, that at the level where Raise Dead becomes more or less easily available, death itself easily comes to you as well.

In one of our (higher level) campaigns, we had several incidents in where the characters simply died thanks to a single, little failed save. And in at least 2 cases the characters died just because they rolled extremely poor, something you don`t really expect. (If a 18th level Paladin/Cleric/Fighter/Hospitaler failes his Fortitude Save against a Disintegrate or something like that, you can`t say that this is expectable!)
None of these death were because the character had really deserved it through stupid actions, just because it was a possible and "fair" (in regard to Challenge Rating) outcome.

Disintegrate, Harm and all the other killer spells are awaiting the player at these levels.
Save and Die spells and Criticals have one thing in common - they favors the NPCs. The PCs are constantly subject to such dangers, and once in their "lifetime", they will fail.

Raise Dead and similar spells are just there to compensate for the lethalness that opposes the characters.

If you are going to remove Raise Dead, Resourection or True Resourcetion, be sure to also remove Save or Die spells and effects (maybe even Massive Damage Rules, or Criticals?).
And even in this case they will probably be in disadvantage.

Anyway, you can restrict Raise Dead and similar spells.
In my Space Experiences Campaign (homebrew), I decided to allow these spells but (because I also somewhat disliked them), they have one disadvantage: You have to be on the homeworld of the character to raise him.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Zappo]

I allow it as is. The loss of a level is a big penalty anyway, and from what I've noticed, the players wouldn't be any more careful if I removed the spell. Also, if I were to remove it, I would have to make major changes to all the rest of the system in order to maintain the "D&D style" which I enjoy so much.

As for the societal implications of the spell - of course there are people who use it. But the religious arguments, the high cost, and the easy ways to prevent the spell from working, all ensure that its use isn't widespread.

On top of that, the target's soul must be willing to return. This ensures that the spell fails the vast majority of the times IMC. Good characters refuse to come back (who wants to leave heaven?), and evil characters often do as well (they may be in hell, but here they have a chance of eventually becoming fiends - ultimate power!). The only characters who are guaranteed to return are those who left something unfinished, who feel they have a duty to the world, who are just too lustful for revenge, or who want to conquer the world NOW. PCs and other main characters, shortly.

 

[Eben]

You should also consider the social implications of being raised.
In most worlds 5th level spells are probably more of an exception than a rule. Seeing someone you knew or heard of was dead (at around ninth level your PC's will probably be high profile enough to be know) will at least raise eyebrows, maybe people will fear the one returned from the dead. Things get really great if the subject has already been burried.

 

[S'mon]

I haven't seen a problem with Raise Dead in my lowish-magic campaign. The primary limitation on its use is that in my world only about 1 in a million people is a Cleric of 9th or higher level with a Wisdom of 15+: about 20 on a continent of 20 million or so.
This means that usually you need a PC (or possibly Cohort) cleric to cast the spell, making it available only from Level 9. It's been used twice in my current game, by a PC cleric on PCs.

Disallowing Raise Dead changes a lot of high-level play balance factors, as has been noted - it can be done but will tend to discourage PCs from the more risky activities. To be able to use it you have to have won the battle, so you can recover your comrade's (whole) corpse. The effect of RD is thus to mitigate the lethality of high-level combat and reduce PC churning, a reasonable goal to my mind. Some kinder death's-door rules would have almost exactly the same effect (eg death occurring only after a failed Fort save, and/or only whe negative hp = CON+Level, etc)