Raise Dead Questions?

[Keith]

Tallarn:

“sorry to get all argumentative on you, but I think people treat this spell too lightly. It's much harder to get raised than you think.”

On the contrary, I appreciate you thinking out and posting some different points; it is the whole point of being here.
I don’t have time right now to talk further, unfortunately. There is an interesting topic in the economics of the diamond in D&D, I think. I’m not sure either of us has got it quite right yet, either.

Cheers!

 

[Siridar]

I leave it as is.

500gp diamonds aren't exactly easy to come by. In my campaign the group has made friends with a fairly powerful Cleric who will and has raised them on a number of occassions. He has access to the higher level raise dead spells, but only uses those for special reasons.

In order to keep it from getting out of hand, I've instituted the "3 strikes and you pay a price" rule. If you are raised more than three times, a being more powerful than the gods (death, fate, whatever) comes to claim a price. I haven't mentioned what that price is yet to the player's, but I've put the fear of god into them, prompting them to be a little more careful and rely less on the spell. Also helps that I flip through the Manual of the Planes when I mention the idea of a "price and it's collector"

If a player happens to gain the spell, then i'm a little more lenient with it. They've gotten that far, they may as well use the power. But I won't stand by and let them abuse it. Raising themselves willy nilly is okay and I'll never penalize them for it. I rarely fudge dice rolls and the death tolls are usually pretty up there in my games. Bad dice rolls can really kill a player not to mention a game.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

The most simple way to prevent abuse of Raise Dead is to make it a habit of monsters to decapitate fallen adventurers, if the monsters are intelligent.

After all, it can often be quite difficult to get away from a lost battle, and even a successful fight may mean leaving your dead behind.

 

[jasper]

I allow all raise spells in all editions. No problem. And only Pcs or npcs with a purpose get raised.
In 1st and 2nd the resurrection check was a joke. I have only seen it fail 9 times in twenty years.
In 2nd the age penality was nothing to pc elf.
I like the level penalty in third because I see and seen written how everyone hates level drain monsters. And they cry about.
I also just charge 500 gp because the diamond amount would increase as some one said. Now when the party pc gets 9th level he will have to shop for the diamond.
Also the poor would not want to come back.
insert married with children theme....
Al! Why aren't happy we raise you!
Gee Peg! I was dead and didn't work in the shoe store. Now I got to go back.
end episode...

And the rich who good why do they want to come back... Gee 3 hots a cot and lots of hotties compare a cold case, mother in law and taxes!!!!
The evil rich would want to come back but who would want to raise them....

So that leaves the evil villian Ming the Mercyless and peter paul and mary the adventurers so how does this small number of never dead affect a world.
Gee Murdoch you died 3 times this week. What are going to now?
Murdoch, " I going to disney land."

Some one mention the Odessey gee what a great campaign. The dm has the gods mad at the pcs, kills off most of them, or turns into pigs etc and finally wrap up the series of modules with a hack and slash through numerous low level npcs. So the pc can get his jollys pretenting to make it with a princess.....
Hmmm sounds like star wars.

 

[Piratecat]

I have been a DM for years and this spell has plagued countless campains that I've run. As soon as 9th level is achieved, the sense of danger is immediately ripped from the PCs and soon thereafter the campaign is constantly halted by PC being raised after succumbing to dangerous conditions/creatures.

I wonder what we're doing differently; my PCs are very high level (17th+), and even with access to true resurrection they're terrified of dying. It's definitely something that they're trying to avoid, and that fear still drives combat tactics. In fact, I'd say that they more of a sense of danger now than they did at lower levels.

I think they're just paranoid.

 

[Seravin]

Another 2cp...

I can't say the various raise/ressurrects have affected my players attitude towards dying much. They certainly don't want to die and take great pains to avoid it.
However there were campaign specific issues I wanted to answer for my own satisfaction. Thus:
1. Raising the dead is usually done by the deities responsible for the cycle of life - though I have made specific exceptions to this if the cause was important enough to another church.
2. It is a common practice to Commune with the deity to make sure it is all right to bring back that person. Note that the xp cost makes it reasonably expensive, especially if you can't do the commune yourself. Also you don't have to do this, but if the Commune comes back no, you still have a 500gp diamond.
3. Finally it is common knowledge amongst the churches that a state of balance is currently observed. If a good person is raised then someone on the side of evil gets to come back.
In practice this has made Raise Dead slightly more expensive for the party cleric; and it has given me several great plot hooks. It gets better as the players go up in level too.

It works for me at least.

 

[Utrecht]

Surrounding the "cost" of the diamond.

While it is certainly true local and global supply and demand will affect the actual gold piece cost of the diamond - we need to look at what this cost actually means.

Does it literally mean a 500gp diamond? In that case, yes it is possible that local price inflation could have diamond chips going for 500gp (but by the same toke outside influences will drive this back down. I.e. Merchant realizes that the diamond costs have spiked in an area - well it makes sense for him to import diamonds and make a profit....)

Or does the 500gp diamond mean 500gp at day 1? So if suddenly there is a glut of raise deads, the cost of this diamond has went up to 1000,2000 gp. Making raise dead a progressively more expensive proposition (again until outside influences level the price out again) Personally, this is how I would play it - after all that 500gp has to represent something (i.e. clarity for size) that makes it appropraite for the spell. For example, a diamond chip would simply not be sufficient to focus the divine power gods no matter how much I paid for it......

 

[Keith]

Those are the two options I see as well, and it is an interesting question. I find it hard to see how a spell can be built around the current dollar value of a material component. I have always thought that that was shorthand for the actually quality of the item. If there is a shortage of the piece of wool needed for some other spell, the component remains the piece of wool, while the cost of acquiring it may soar.

I lean towards the interpretation that you need a certain quality of gem, which would be worth 500GP all else being equal. My point was and is that that use of that item for that spell inherently means that all else is not equal. That gem, that might otherwise be worth 500GP, has become priceless. The demand for them would not be linked to the number of actual Raise Deads performed; the demand would be linked only to the resources of the wealthy, who would stockpile every one of these gems that came out of the ground.

Someone asked how many I thought there were, implying that my point suggests too many of them, which is exactly the opposite of my position. There would not be enough, regardless of how many there are, for ordinary people to acquire even one at any price.

Ironically, the situation would be similar to diamonds in our world. They are common, and objectively nearly valueless. The natural supply far outstrips the real demand. However ,they have been stockpiled, and their trade monopolized, and as a result-they cost a great deal more than their intrinsic value.

Even in the event that it becomes tiny diamonds that are worth 500GP, don’t expect to be able to find any. So, how do PCs use the spell all the time? I can’t see how, any way you cut the diamond. Heh.

 

[Utrecht]

Now, that is interesting - the monopolization of diamonds in case of raise dead.

I had not really taken that into account. However, it must still be realized that all (ha ha) raise dead does is returns life to a lifeless body.

It does not confir youth

It does not cure disease

It does not remove poison

So the stockpiling of 500gp diamonds only makes sense for those who are in dangerous professions like gladiators, etc. But it would not make sense for say 80 year old Merchant princes - sure they can raise you, but that heart is going to stop quick enough.

Therefore, I see this as a minor problem - but one that could affect the commodety price of diamonds - especially if suddenly there was another buyer (the PCs) who force an inflationary price war.

Again, I have only focused on the economic side of things - there is still the social, theological and cultural aspects (as mentioned above by other posters) that could be even more significant deterrents to raising.

 

[Keith]

How about this: who would win a war, the side with a diamond stockpile, or the side that only has a few for personal use? An army that raises their dead after each battle-kind of a dangerous opponent. I still see no way around stockpiles of the things. They are the nuclear warheads of their world, much more so than fireballs or any other petty damage-causing spell or equipment.

The other issues you raise Utrecht are really cool. In fact, In a world where spells are researched, what would be the next most desirable spell after raise dead and cure disease? Have to be "Halt Aging". Is there such a spell? With everything else that can be accomplished, it seems like they would have licked that one. The truth is, D&D magic is largely a set of spells that adventuring types would want; the spells have never really been assessed or expanded with an eye to what a society would try to accomplish with magic. That is the way people tend to use them, too. The odd PC is brought back with Raise Dead, but casual ideas that the diamond must be rare, or nobody would bother to collect them are used to explain why there are not perpetually Raised armies storming about the place, or at least clerics charging something more realistic as a going rate for returning from the dead.