Rake and Pounce confusion? [2004 Thread]

[Hypersmurf]

Sounds sensible to me.

So, charge attack is bite (plus improved grab if it chooses), 2 claws, 2 rakes.

Single attack is bite and improved grab to establish hold. Next round, if hold established, grapple check for bite damage and 2 rakes.

All looks good.

Full attack is bite and 2 claws. If use improved grab on bite then can't use claws since that is attacking with a natural weapon and requires a successful grapple check? But next round could make 2 rake attacks?

Yes... although I can't see any reason he couldn't make one claw attack in the same round even on a successful Improved Grab, since the bite attack was made outside the grapple, and he's allowed to use one natural weapon in a grapple.

Alternatively, I don't see why he can't make his claw attacks followed by his bite attack. The rule that attacks must occur in order of highest bonus to lowest is specifically "If you receive multiple attacks due to a high base attack bonus", and as noted in the MM, "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

So since the extra attacks are explicitly not from a high BAB, there's no restriction on the order in which they occur.

-Hyp.

 

[anon]

I believe all of those attacks would actually be 1 point higher due to you having a higher BAB (+3) than the Leopard (+2).

 

[Legildur]

I believe all of those attacks would actually be 1 point higher due to you having a higher BAB (+3) than the Leopard (+2).

You are 100% right, but I was just keeping the numbers the same as in the MM so others could reference it and not scratch their heads.

 

[Thanee]

Yep, now you got it right (and as I said above, too ).

I suppose on a full attack you can still choose which order the attacks are done, so doing the claws first would make sense.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

If he's grappling, he's essentially "hanging on" with his front paws. Try it with a cat some time - the cat will scrabble at you with his back claws.

The doubt I still have with this is that... doesn't he use the BITE to maintain the hold?

 

[Darklone]

The doubt I still have with this is that... doesn't he use the BITE to maintain the hold?

If I'm grappling with cats, they maintain the hold with all four paws and the bite.

 

[Li Shenron]

If I'm grappling with cats, they maintain the hold with all four paws and the bite.

At least the Improved Grab ability for the Leopard works only if it hits with the BITE. That's why I thought that it uses the bite to start and keep the grapple, but if that's true then he doesn't have the bite "free" to attack (although it can use it do deal damage through a grapple check instead of an attack).

 

[Thanee]

The rules for grapple don't seem to work like that. You just initiate a grapple, but there is no need to 'maintain' a grapple, that is done automatically, hence you don't have to dedicate some of your attacks to this.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Will]

I think a regular full attack is bite + 2 claws. If the bite succeeds, improved grab applies. I don't think you have to sacrifice the claw attacks.

Looking at the description under Leopard and then in back of MM, I think it's just a special ability that applies to bite attacks.

However... reading the section in BACK... you can only improve grab creatures at least one size SMALLER.

 

[Kershek]

I think a regular full attack is bite + 2 claws. If the bite succeeds, improved grab applies. I don't think you have to sacrifice the claw attacks.

If you succeed with improved grab, you forfeit the rest of your natural attacks for the round because you are now in a grappled state. (Is that right, Hyp?)