(Rambling) Why 4e doesn't "feel" 1e...

Delta

First Post
I've been trying to figure out how to balance Wizards with the other classes without screwing up the "powerful but rare" feeling of magic in previous editions.

You know, if you go all the way back to pre-D&D Chainmail, you'll see wizards that make skill checks (basically) to successfully cast any spell. Pick a more powerful spell, and you're less likely to get it off.

Sometimes I dream about what D&D would be like if Gary had kept to that idea, rather than switching to the Vancian fire-and-forget balancing mechanic. But I sure don't want to be the guy rewriting D&D from day T-1 to see what it would look like.
 

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Irda Ranger

First Post
You know, if you go all the way back to pre-D&D Chainmail, you'll see wizards that make skill checks (basically) to successfully cast any spell. Pick a more powerful spell, and you're less likely to get it off.

Sometimes I dream about what D&D would be like if Gary had kept to that idea, rather than switching to the Vancian fire-and-forget balancing mechanic. But I sure don't want to be the guy rewriting D&D from day T-1 to see what it would look like.
You mean like 4E but with +2/-2 attack modifiers for using powers above/below your current class level?
 

Allister

First Post
Actually, the problem is I think the switchover from 1e/2e to 3e.

From a post on wizards boards...the differences between a 3E and a 1e/2e wizard.

1. Ability Score
To begin with, there is no increase every 4 levels and to even be able to choose the wizard class, you needed a minimum INT of 9 while to be able to cast a spell, a wizard needed to have a minimum INT score equal to the spell level x2.

With the 4d6 rolling method, getting a score above 16 was extremely lucky and given that the Tome of Clear Thought (only magic item that could increase your score other than the ubiquitous WISH spell) could only be used once and it wasn't an item a player could create (I'll be getting back to magic items), many of the higher level spells didn't come into play into the campaign since a player wasn't likely to have the minimum intelligence.

There were also 2 other restrictions.

Restriction a) To learn a spell, a wizard had to roll under their % chance to learn a spell (base of 35% @ INT of 9 +5% per point of INT above 9). If unsuccessful, the player could not put it into their spell book UNTIL they increased in level and rolled again and had still access to the spell. (No using other people's spellbooks to get around this )

Restriction b There was a limit to how many spells one could have in their (ONLY) spellbook. Starting at a low of 6 @ INT 9 and ending at a high of 18 at an INT of 18 (no restriction at an INT of 19 and above). At a score of 16 (10% exp bonus) you could only have 11 spells per level in your spellbook.

At a glance, you can see ALREADY how the 3E wizard got a boost just from how INT interacts with their abilities (whereas the melee classes actually got significantly weaker as the explosion of the STR table really screwed them over)


The wizard class
With no bonus spells for INT AND a base spells per day that saw the following
a 1st level wizard only be able to cast 1 spell
while a 10th level wizard had 4 4 3 2 2 (no cantrips of course)
and a 20th level wizard has 5 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 2 even moreso than the 3E wizard, a 1e/2e wizard player had to husband his resources even more effectively.

However, there's one big issue that really allowed the 3E wizard to make out like a bandit.

Scroll creation in 3E is selectable at 1st level. In 1e/2e, scroll and potion creation was limited to 9th level and higher. (but, I'm still not ready to get to magic items so hold on )

The effect of such a draconian restriction meant that spells like Comprehend Languages and even Knock were rarely (ab)used since combined with PART 1 (INT), no sane mage would waste a precious spell slot on things like that (true in 3E as well, but scroll creation gives the 3E MU an easy reach around)

Furthermore, spell acquisiton was firmly under DM-control. Technically, the only difference between this method and 3e is that in 1e/2e, all magic using spells are off limits to the player unless the DM says otherwise whereas in 3E, all spells are fair game unless the DM says otherwise. A slight but IMPORTANT difference.

Our poor generalist wizard in 1e/2e would get 3d4 or up to his INT limit 1st level spells (which included read and detect magic) but would only get a new spell in 3 ways.

a) When they would acquire a new spell level, so basically once every other level, a generalist would get a new spell (specialists got one spell from their school every time they levelled)

b) Capturing a spellbook and this wasn't EASY (If you'll notice, in the thread detailing the classic adventure, the wizard doesn't get access to a spellbook until he's 4th level )

c) Spell Research.
Ah, good old spell research. You needed a fair amount of downtime (2 weeks per spell level and no interruption longer than a day otherwise you lost a week) and money (1d10 x 100gp) per spell level and you STILL had to succeed on a % spell chance roll.

d) Trade
If you're DM was lenient, you might find a friendly mentor/colleage that would trade one spell of the same level or lower for a spell of the same level. Otherwise, the cost of buying said spell was AT LEAST 1000 gp per spell level (DMs where well within their right to make that 10000gp per spell level).


Spells in Combat
While others have pointed out that fireball was king in 1e/2e, few have pointed out have well weak other spells were when compared to their 3e version.

The Initiative system in 3e was a HUGE boon to ALL spellcasters.
Previous to 3e/4e, initiative was rolled every round by the players and it was modified by either adding your weapon spell or adding your casting time (CT for wizard spells were almost always equal to their spell level while for priests it was spell level +3).

With a dagger having a WpnSpd of 2 and a Longsword a WpnSpd of 5, there was great incentive NOT to use the big gun spells. In magical combat, Magic missile was KING since with a CT of only 1, it would cause the other mage almost invariably to lose their spell as ANY damage taken from the beginng of the round to the their turn in the initiative order would cause the spell to be lost.

Then there's the fact that many of the spells actually got weaker as you increased in level. In 3e, as you increase in level, your likelihood to be affected by a spell that targets your weak save INCREASES which made many Save or Suck/Die spells that much more effective. Contrast this with the 1e/2e model where the effect of the spell was not modifiable by the caster yet the targets increase their likelihood of resisting the spell as they level.

Then there's the effect of many spells themselves. Many spells were actually DANGEROUS to the caster themselves. Casting spells like Permanency would have permanent (heh) effects on your character and nobody abused Po,ymprh/Shapechange/Teleport since the spells had such a horrendous drawback.

THE BIGGEST boost to the 3e wizard however was MAGIC ITEM CREATION.

I'll give a nice example....Staff of Fire (or as it was in 1e/2e, the wand of fire)
Pretty straightforward in 3e to create right?

Well, here's the 1e/2e equivalent as described in Spells & Magic


Use of the Contact other plane spell.
Requires 2 weeks and 400 gp just to learn how to create it.
Requires forging by a master smith of the Azer, from brass smelthed in the City of Brass, tempered by the fiery breath of an adult red dragon, inscribed using a blood red sapphire and then finally polished with a mixture containing the ash of a 1000 year old tree destroyed by fire.

Potion and Scroll creation wasn't as obscene but it sure as hell wasn't anywhere near as easy as 3E (had to be a 9th level wizard with access to a 10,000 laboratory)

With no easy spell items like scrolls and wands, a wizard player was truly limited to what he had memorized and what the DM was generous in giving out as treasure.

The advantage for the wizard was that spells like comprehend languages and Knock could be so effective since they were a limited and rare quantity. When 3E was created, the designer simply kept these effective spells without compensating for all the restrictions they have lifted from the wizard.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
Take a look at character generation. You roll 3d6 (getting a 3-18 split, heavily weighted toward the middle 10-12) for scores.

Just a small note: that system does not exist in AD&D 1e. It is never actually given at all! Exists in original D&D and its Basic descendants, but not AD&D.

Cheers!
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
All of which makes me wonder...

Is there a way to achieve the magic/martial unreliable/reliable split AND even out fighters loosing effectiveness to wizards at high level?

Prior to 4e, a wizard was supposedly balanced by fire-and-forget magic.

It was more than that, though. To a very large extent, the magic-user of AD&D had difficult to use magic.

For the first four levels, the magic-user pretty much existed as a inferior missile combatant with the occasional combat-changing spells. Sleep was the big one there, as no other 1st level spell in AD&D before supplements was worth preparing.

Seriously! Look at the list for a 1st level magic-user:

Burning hands - 1 hp to a small number of opponents
Charm person - 1 opponent might help you
Magic Missile - 1d4+1 damage
Shocking Grasp - 1d8+1 damage (and you had to enter melee!)
Sleep - puts to sleep (effectively) 4-16 HD of monsters

That's it. Sleep was far and away the most effective spell for a low-level magic-user.

2nd level spells don't add much. Stinking Cloud and Web are the only two offensive spells!

It is in the 3rd level spells where you begin to get interesting attack spells: fireball and lightning bolt. However, both of those spells were almost unusable in a dungeon environment. Fireball filled 33,000 cu. ft of space. If you assumed a 10' ceiling, that was 33 ten foot squares - enough to toast party and enemies alike in the cramped dungeons of 1e.

5th level did make Magic Missile worth preparing, though: 3 missiles at 1d4+1.

I've a sneaking suspicion that the low-level magic-user in AD&D really needed to hire a man-at-arms or two, and that's how the player participated for the most part: running the man-at-arms in combat, with the occasional game-changing spell from the magic-user, and then good exploration/puzzle-solving and suchlike from the main PC in non-combat situations.

To understand the balance of the magic-user in 1e, you need to understand the spell list: it is nowhere near as powerful as it became in 2e and beyond!

Cheers!
 

...how many of you knew/remember/know that the random treasure charts were also intentionally weighted against spellcasters as yet another level of game balance?
I did. :)

(However, it's not something I realized in my earliest years of play; I didn't pick up on that until I started getting more serious about reading the rules and trying to figure out exactly how to play by-the-book, sometime in the mid-80s, I guess.)
 

It was more than that, though. To a very large extent, the magic-user of AD&D had difficult to use magic.
Oh, yes. I think that quite a few of the rules added to D&D in AD&D were added with the intent of making things difficult for the magic user. Rules allowing the magic user to lose his spell even when he wins initiative rank way up there.

For the first four levels, the magic-user pretty much existed as a inferior missile combatant with the occasional combat-changing spells. Sleep was the big one there, as no other 1st level spell in AD&D before supplements was worth preparing.
Sleep is definitely the nuclear warhead for the low-level magic user. Calling it "the only spell worth preparing" is hyperbole, but not by much.

I've a sneaking suspicion that the low-level magic-user in AD&D really needed to hire a man-at-arms or two, and that's how the player participated for the most part: running the man-at-arms in combat, with the occasional game-changing spell from the magic-user, and then good exploration/puzzle-solving and suchlike from the main PC in non-combat situations.
That's a good description of how I run low-level magic users. I tend to memorize charm person, first, and use it in town. I try to find some men-at-arms to influence and bind to me. Even while they're charmed, I treat them very well, hoping to keep their loyalty when the magical influence wanes. For the dungeon, I memorize sleep, and I try to find scrolls (or wands!), and if I gain much treasure, I'm likely to try and commission a scroll. By second level, I'm likely to go for sleep and a utility spell (e.g. Tenser's floating disc, spider climb, hold portal, and detect magic are all likely candidates), and at least one scroll with a powerful combat spell (sleep, web, etc).

I try to keep my magic user out of combat. With charmed men-at-arms, I still get to enjoy combat, though. And I might throw darts or daggers; I'm not *that* inferior with missiles -- only 5% different from a Fighter, at these levels, and I might have a Dex bonus. Also, I can throw two daggers or three darts. I also like flaming oil.

I'm working towards the goal of 5th level of course, when my arcane power and studies really start to pay off... :)
 


Good analysis. I would also like to note that memorizing spells in AD&D was very time intensive as well. I recall having to literally spent 15 minutes per spell level. This means that if a magic-user were to memorize 4 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells, and 1 3rd level spell, it would take 2 hours and 45 minutes of uninterrupted study!
 

Delta

First Post
You mean like 4E but with +2/-2 attack modifiers for using powers above/below your current class level?

Geez, I sure hope not. :) One of the things I'm looking at is that depending on your (Chainmail) magic skill roll, your spell might (a) come into effect immediately, (b) get delayed come into effect next turn, or (c) get negated/non-effective entirely. So that builds in a nice unpedictability factor that feels right for magic spells.
 

Delta

First Post
I would also like to note that memorizing spells in AD&D was very time intensive as well. I recall having to literally spent 15 minutes per spell level. This means that if a magic-user were to memorize 4 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells, and 1 3rd level spell, it would take 2 hours and 45 minutes of uninterrupted study!

That's not long. Some days I spend that much time reading ENWorld here, and I don't even get to blow anything up with my mind at the end! :D
 

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