(Rambling) Why 4e doesn't "feel" 1e...

[Mister Doug]

I have 2nd ed DMG: 4d6 drop highest arrange to taste was best in the book, and had "warning, may produce superpowered characters" on it. So, saying it was the preferred method doesn't seem to fit.

Saying it was the preferred method is pure unadulterated fact.

1st edition DMG, page 11, under "Generation of Ability Scores":

Method I:

All scores are recorded and arranged in the order the player desires. 4d6 are rolled and the lowest die (or one of the lower) is discarded.

The second edition DMG is not the place to go to so support or refute what was in 1st edition.

 

[hamishspence]

Good point: I haven't got 1st ed, only 2nd, and was figuring they were pretty similar in general feel. I know Pre 1st ed D&D was 3d6, no arranging to taste, so 4d6 drop highest, arrange to taste, was 3rd ed, and 1st ed, only, then?

 

[thedungeondelver]

Good point: I haven't got 1st ed, only 2nd, and was figuring they were pretty similar in general feel. I know Pre 1st ed D&D was 3d6, no arranging to taste, so 4d6 drop highest, arrange to taste, was 3rd ed, and 1st ed, only, then?

There were five methods available in ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS; four were introduced in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE and the last in UNEARTHED ARCANA. It should be noted that the latter method was restricted to the generation of human characters only.

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

That's not long. Some days I spend that much time reading ENWorld here, and I don't even get to blow anything up with my mind at the end!

True. It's only about 9 hours of time spent for a 5th level magic-user to memorize all his allowed spells (6 hours of rest for memorizing 3rd level spells and 2 hours and 45 minutes for memorizing the desired spells) but it's certainly not going to get better over time. If we take a 9th level magic-user and assume he is going to memorize all of the spells allowed for his level, it's going to take that magic-user 16 hours and 30 minutes (8 hours of rest included). Memorizing a 5th level spell alone is going to take that same magic-user 9 hours and 15 minutes. The only break the magic-user has in this system is he doesn't necessarily have to re-memorize spells he hasn't spent. Nevertheless, spell memorization is certainly something that you don't want to do away from civilization (especially if your DM uses random encounters).

 

[Just Another User]

Actually, the problem is I think the switchover from 1e/2e to 3e.

From a post on wizards boards...the differences between a 3E and a 1e/2e wizard.
[...]

An excelent analisys with which I agree 100%
I'd like to add a couple points you missed.

MEMORIZATION/PREPARATION TIME
in 2nd editon (and maybe 1ed) a caster needed 10 (15?) minutes for spell level to prepare a spell, this means that a 20th level wizard that used all his slots needed somethng like 20 hours to prepare them all. Compare it with the single hour of the 3e wizard. Another reason for 2ed casters to use low level spells over high level and keep the meteor storm for when it is really necessary.

Quicken spell & c.: maybe a minor thing but being able to cast two spells in one round always hit me as very powerful if compared to 2nd edition where nobody, not even the gods, could do it (IIRC) . And in 3.x with the later supplements I think you could even do 3 spells for round.

 

[justanobody]

Just a small note: that system does not exist in AD&D 1e. It is never actually given at all! Exists in original D&D and its Basic descendants, but not AD&D.

Cheers!

Method IV:

3d6 are rolled sufficient times to generate the 6 ability scores, in order, for 12 characters. The player then selects the single set of scores which he or she finds most desirable and these scores are noted on the character
record sheet.

DMG page 11. It doesn't just have a single roll of the 6 scores with 3d6, but does have rolling 3d6 to generate scores.

Method III also used a strange 3d6 method, but not the linear 3d6 and write them down as you get them method. but rolling 3d6 is in 1E unless I am not understanding what you are saying...

 

[Treebore]

True. It's only about 9 hours of time spent for a 5th level magic-user to memorize all his allowed spells (6 hours of rest for memorizing 3rd level spells and 2 hours and 45 minutes for memorizing the desired spells) but it's certainly not going to get better over time. If we take a 9th level magic-user and assume he is going to memorize all of the spells allowed for his level, it's going to take that magic-user 16 hours and 30 minutes (8 hours of rest included). Memorizing a 5th level spell alone is going to take that same magic-user 9 hours and 15 minutes. The only break the magic-user has in this system is he doesn't necessarily have to re-memorize spells he hasn't spent. Nevertheless, spell memorization is certainly something that you don't want to do away from civilization (especially if your DM uses random encounters).

1E required you to rememorize spells you didn't cast? I guess that was one of our earliest house rules then. Only memorize for slots you used, or wanted to change.

No, according to page 39 and 40 of the DMG they only need to rest and memorize for spells they need to recover. The number of hours needed were depenedent upon the highest level spell needed to be recovered.

Level 1 and 2 spells required 4 hours.
Level 3 and 4 required 6 hours, and so on.

Then it was 15 minutes per level of the spell spent to actually relearn it.


So I guess you mean by "not necessarily" is if they want to replace a spell still in memory, or not. Yeah, that must be what you were meaning.

 

[RFisher]

I have never played in a game where hitpoints were not max at first level since... mm, 1977.

When my current group is making PCs for 3e, they roll hp and starting money before the DM even has a chance to offer them max. The idea of not rolling doesn’t even seem to enter their minds.

They’ve even turned down point-buy ability scores when offered.

Sometimes I dream about what D&D would be like if Gary had kept to that idea, rather than switching to the Vancian fire-and-forget balancing mechanic.

I’ve played that game. Under more systems than I care to recall. When I deigned to play AD&D during my anything-but-D&D years, not having to roll to see if my spell worked was the first thing that made me realize that old game I’d scorned maybe did still have a few things to offer.

But I sure don't want to be the guy rewriting D&D from day T-1 to see what it would look like.

Unfortunately, that’s something I can’t seem to keep myself from repeatedly trying.

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

1E required you to rememorize spells you didn't cast? I guess that was one of our earliest house rules then. Only memorize for slots you used, or wanted to change.

Ah. I didn't say that. I think it's pretty clear what I wrote.

 

[Umbran]

Magic is powerful, but unreliable. Martial power is reliable, but not terribly powerful.

I just don't think that's so. In general, in earlier editions, magic was not any less reliable than the sword. Given that you weren't getting through higher-level fights without the power of magic, and lots of folks made it through those fights, and everyone recognized that the wizards and clerics held the field, I don't think we can say it wasn't reliable power.

What was not reliable was the continued existence of the one who cast the magic. Poor AC, low hit points, and not particularly good saves made the wizard themselves fragile.