D&D (2024) Ranged Builds Thread

[FrogReaver]

Now let's do the sorc 5/warlock 2

To match the control of the Level 7 Battlemaster (5 dice instead of 4 now) you need to use 2x level 3 slots targeting 3 enemies and 1x level 2 slot targeting 2. That also takes up 3 of your 18 actions, you still potentially have 18 bonus actions (you won't use all them at this level).

Your strategy was to use your control spells and then dump all your resources into seeking/quicken for more EB's.

Damage per beam = 6
Damage per EB = 12
Damage with hex per EB = 16.5
Damage with hex per EB reroll = 8.25

Sorcery Points with 4 level 1 sorcerer spells, 5 sorcery points and 2 from recovery, 2 level 2 spells = 15

Since level 2+ control spells are targeting 2-3 enemies I don't assume they miss or that they end early enough to bother with hex.
That leaves 3 encounters of 3 rounds for hex so 9 total rounds. You only miss an average of 7.2 times with the 9 hex rounds so you will use 8 of your 15 sorcery points on non hex quicken EB. The remaining 7 go to hex eb rerolls with seeking.

Hex EB rounds 9 at 16.5 = 148.5
Hex attack rerolls 7 at 8.25 = 57.8
Quicken non hex EB's 4 at 12 = 48
Non hex EB's 6 at 12 = 72

Total Sorlock Damage = 326.3

Now the battlemaster (added GWM) fighter will do
Attack Action 18 at 18.05 = 324.9
Action Surge 3 at 18.05 = 54.2
+67.5 damage with superiority dice = 67.5

Battlemaster Total Damage = 446.6

 

[Zardnaar]

Now let's do the sorc 4/warlock 2

To match the control of the Level 4 Battlemaster you need to use 3x webs. That also takes up 3 of your 18 actions, you still potentially have 18 bonus actions (you won't use all them at this level).

Your strategy was to use your control spells and then dump all your resources into seeking/quicken for more EB's.

Damage per beam = 6
Damage per EB = 12
Damage with hex per EB = 16.5
Damage with hex per EB reroll = 8.25

Sorcery Points with 4 level 1 sorcerer spells, 4 sorcery points and 2 from recovery = 10

Since Web's are targeting 2 enemies I don't assume they miss or that they end early enough to bother with hex.
That leaves 3 encounters of 3 rounds for hex so 9 total rounds. You only miss an average of 7.2 times with the 9 hex attacks so you will use 4 of your 10 sorcery points on non hex quicken EB. The remaining 6 go to hex eb rerolls with seeking.

Hex EB rounds 9 at 16.5 = 148.5
Hex attack rerolls 6 at 8.25 = 49.5
Quicken non hex EB's 2 at 12 = 24
Non hex EB's 6 at 12 = 72

Total Sorlock Damage = 294

Now the battlemaster (added GWM) fighter will do
Attack Action 18 at 18.05 = 324.9
Action Surge 3 at 18.05 = 54.2
+54 damage with superiority dice = 54

Battlemaster Total Damage = 433.1

Kinda overlaps with my can a spellvaster heats a martial.

After buffs I don't think they can at least at levels that matter.

Unnerfed CME theoretically can.

Didn't do sorlocks though.

That Battlemaster RAW should probably have a magic weapon as well. Anywhere from +2 damage through to 2d6. Battlemaster has +2 to hit as well.

Its damage+control. I'm not sure archery I'd that good atm. Reasonably sure Sorlocks and Sorcerers aren't all that in terms of DPR. Control+nova that's useful though.

 

[FrogReaver]

Kinda overlaps with my can a spellvaster heats a martial.

After buffs I don't think they can at least at levels that matter.

Unnerfed CME theoretically can.

Didn't do sorlocks though.

Yea it’s similar. The one thing I find with casters is that when they are doing ‘good’ damage they aren’t doing any control. Their damage typically requires a concentration spell and their control typically does as well.

That Battlemaster RAW should probably have a magic weapon as well. Anywhere from +2 damage through to 2d6. Battlemaster has +2 to hit as well.

That’s one thing I dislike about soulknife as well. Lack of magic weapons.

Also worth noting, for d10 weapons like heavy crossbows savage attacker can also be included, which adds a decent amount of Damage and is something EB cannot get. I generally assume I’d rather have alert/lucky and darkvision in an archer than trading one of those things for savage attacker. I particularly like Dwarf here. 120ft darkvision. Extra hp. Resistance to a fairly common damage type. But if damage is the only metric, it could help.

It’s damage+control. I'm not sure archery I'd that good atm. Reasonably sure Sorlocks and Sorcerers aren't all that in terms of DPR. Control+nova that's useful though.

If you are looking straight at damage archery doesn’t compare to the melee options. But archery typically can do much better control than melee as most control effects are more impactful if you can trigger them at range. Archery control typically can be done while also attacking. You also don’t lose turns as often because enemies might be out of your range. In actual play, even with the lower damage compared to their melee counterparts I think archers likely will have a bigger impact on most combats.

 

[mellored]

No idea how you are getting this

+10% to hit * 6 attacks = 60% chance to hit.

Admittedly, i spend about as much time trying to estimate than if I had just done the math normally.

Then, I'd estimate a single level 2 spell can likely target 2 enemies (tasha's laughter is guaranteed to do so with a good effect).

Except Web is a fair bit better than Frightened

Advantage on attacks if they failed.
They get out, you push them back in.
Difficult terrain where Push 10 = Push 20.
Advantage for allies
Disadvantage on Dex saves.
Takes an action to escape, which means they can't make a ranged attack.


But to prevent this from going on forever, I'll agree with 3 webs. Sorlock has catching up to do.

One obvious miss on your part is that you aren't accounting for the +18 damage provided by maneuver dice per short rest. Or for 2 short rests that's +54 damage. That alone is worth nearly 11 EB attacks.

True. That is a big thing.
I was miss remembering Menance.

Yes. My point was that there wouldn't be much left for things like shield and etc.

4 Pact slots for Shield (assuming Web), an invocation, 5-6 extra cantrips that can all be utility since Force has 0 resistance.

I guess you could throw in an invisible familiar with the Help action if your looking for max damage.

In my initial assessment I was wrongly converting those to sorcery points. Since you can't do that then I'd probably need to add another sorcerer level.

Don't forget Sorcerer Restoration.

 

[mellored]

Now let's do the sorc 5/warlock 2

Damage per beam = 6
Damage per EB = 12
Damage with hex per EB = 16.5
Damage with hex per EB reroll = 8.25

Sorcery Points with 4 level 1 sorcerer spells, 5 sorcery points and 2 from recovery, 2 level 2 spells = 15

+2 level 3 slots = 21
6 more beams (no Hex) = +36

Total Sorlock Damage = 326.3

326.3 + 26 = 362.2

So yea, I conceded
Battlemaster is still ahead at level 7.




Though actually...
(1d10+4)*3 = 28.5 * .6 = 17.1
Vs
8d6 = 28 * .6 + 14*.4 = 22.4 (+5 damage if combined with Web)
Vs
(1d10+4+1d6) * 3 = 39 * .6 = 23.4

You're better off with fireball or lighting if you can hit 2 targets.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yea it’s similar. The one thing I find with casters is that when they are doing ‘good’ damage they aren’t doing any control. Their damage typically requires a concentration spell and their control typically does as well.



That’s one thing I dislike about soulknife as well. Lack of magic weapons.

Also worth noting, for d10 weapons like heavy crossbows savage attacker can also be included, which adds a decent amount of Damage and is something EB cannot get. I generally assume I’d rather have alert/lucky and darkvision in an archer than trading one of those things for savage attacker. I particularly like Dwarf here. 120ft darkvision. Extra hp. Resistance to a fairly common damage type. But if damage is the only metric, it could help.



If you are looking straight at damage archery doesn’t compare to the melee options. But archery typically can do much better control than melee as most control effects are more impactful if you can trigger them at range. Archery control typically can be done while also attacking. You also don’t lose turns as often because enemies might be out of your range. In actual play, even with the lower damage compared to their melee counterparts I think archers likely will have a bigger impact on most combats.

Not seeing archers atm. Sharpshooter nerf and battlemaster is good but not that popular.

Casuals don't seem to spot HWM can be used on bows.

 

[FrogReaver]

+2 level 3 slots = 21
6 more beams (no Hex) = +36

326.3 + 26 = 362.2

So yea, I conceded
Battlemaster is still ahead at level 7.




Though actually...
(1d10+4)*3 = 28.5 * .6 = 17.1
Vs
8d6 = 28 * .6 + 14*.4 = 22.4 (+5 damage if combined with Web)
Vs
(1d10+4+1d6) * 3 = 39 * .6 = 23.4

You're better off with fireball or lighting if you can hit 2 targets.

Might want to recount your slots after taking off 2 level 3 and a level 2 slot to match the battle masters use of menacing 5x per short rest. You don’t have the spare slots you think you do.

So no extra beams that I didn’t already account for. No slots for fireball either.

In any event, I’m glad we are in the same page about Battlemaster and sorlocks at level 7.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not seeing archers atm. Sharpshooter nerf and battlemaster is good but not that popular.

Casuals don't seem to spot HWM can be used on bows.

I think it just takes people explaining how archers are good. And that’s by focusing the comparisons on the mix of damage and control they can do.

 

[mellored]

Might want to recount your slots after taking off 2 level 3 and a level 2 slot to match the battle masters use of menacing 5x per short rest. You don’t have the spare slots you think you do.

So no extra beams that I didn’t already account for. No slots for fireball either.

I assume 3 web is equal to BM control. That's your 3 level 2 slots.

If they are stuck in the web, you have advantage.
if they get out, spend SP to push them back in.
+Allies benefit as well.
+works on zombies

Still leaves the battlemaster ahead at 7 though, and the breakpoint at 11, when quicken is 3 beams.

Mainly i forget about the BM dice added damage.

 

[FrogReaver]

I assume 3 web is equal to BM control. That's your 3 level 2 slots.

Okay. I don't think it's as good of control at that point. Though if you are willing to use some sorcery points for quicken to help ensure enemies get pushed back into the web if escaped (or maybe other nearby ones that weren't in web initially) as you suggest below. I agree doing that would close the gap and it's something I would really want to do in actual play given the opportunity despite potentially a quicken hex EB or hex EB reroll that I assumed in my damage calculations for the non-hex version of each (hex and web being mutually exclusive).

In any event, having 2 level 3 slots instead of 2 level 2 slots is only 2 more sorcery points. If one was to use the 2 level 3 slots as fireball instead then that's 4 less sorcery points and 2 less EB actions than I used. I think you were estimating 6 here, but the net gain is just 2.

If they are stuck in the web, you have advantage.

I mean, i seriously question the value of attacking a controlled enemy that can do nothing meaningful other than attempt to free itself from your web and may not even succeed at that. I don't think the assumption that you target the webbed creature is a good one. Seems to me your attacks would be better used on an enemy currently actually threatening your allies.

So yea, we could maximize white room dpr with the assumption that we utilize web for advantage, but I don't think we should be doing that as I think it would be increasing DPR at the expense of priority targeting effectiveness.

if they get out, spend SP to push them back in.

I really like this option alot. Though I'll note for our damage comparison, using your sorcery points while web is up means its no hex EB. So we would need to use the non-hex damage for these EB's, which likely means some of the damage i listed needs taken away. Though if we can use this option enough, we might even need 1 less cast of web to match the control, meaning potentially a few extra sorcery points and another use of hex as well (hex was concentration restricted not sorcery point or action economy restricted at this level).

+Allies benefit as well.

Same as above when it came to you attacking the webbed creature. Ideally your allies should be attacking the non-webbed creatures before worrying about the webbed ones.

+works on zombies

Okay, but for it to be effective you really need 2+ melee only enemies within 20ft of each other. That's alot more restrictive than finding a single melee only enemy that menacing requires. Also you may be faced with the dilemma of webbing 2 lesser creatures or webbing 1 stronger creature. Or Web may only be able to target target 1 strong and 1 weaker enemy. Menacing can always target the most desirable melee only enemy without losing effectiveness. So while we can mostly count turns of control, it's still worth noting that not all turns are necessarily equal.

Still leaves the battlemaster ahead at 7 though, and the breakpoint at 11, when quicken is 3 beams.

Mainly i forget about the BM dice added damage.

Sure. Though I think we need to fully validate the level 11 breakpoint. Battlemasters 3rd attack does 4 damage more at +2 attack compared to EB at level 11. He's increased superiority dice size. He's increased action surges damage. I'm not sure the comparison is going to be as clear cut for the EB Sorc even at that point.

Other random thoughts.
One thing I like about the sorlock, is he can use Tasha's Laughter or similar and control ranged enemies as well. Battlemasters get no maneuvers that particularly control them (menacing for causing them disadvantage is the best he's got).