Ranged Defender: Doable?

[Cadfan]

Alright, I'll give you this much- the transferrence power is the only good start on a solution to this problem that I've seen yet.

I still think you're doomed though. The basic idea of pairing "forces enemies to engage him" and "has ranged attacks, which are the best ability available in the game for preventing enemies from engaging him" is a tough sell.

 

[Rechan]

I still think you're doomed though. The basic idea of pairing "forces enemies to engage him" and "has ranged attacks, which are the best ability available in the game for preventing enemies from engaging him" is a tough sell.

Well. I know you're going to suddenly say "CONTROLLER"...

But one solution is burst/blast effects. Not necessarily 'effects many enemies', but 'Close burst 5, target: One enemy' and 'Close Burst 2' for powers and melee effects to help deal when the enemy gets into melee range. Also a Close X attack that marks enemies in the area.

Ultimately, I like to look at the Swordmage. I consider the Swordmage very good base for this. He has controller-like powers of slowing/immobilizing and area effects. But more pertinent, he is much 'bring the fight to the monster'; chase the sucker down and make him fight me. As a similar idea, the Ranged Defender would have effects similar to the Swordmage.

Ranged powers that pull an enemy to him (Like Lightning Lure)
Ranged powers that punish the monster if it doesn't move towards the Defender (Reverse of Booming Blade).
Close Burst effects (Similar to Swordburst)

Now, this all seems to facilitate a magic using Ranged Defender. I could see a class feature that helps make ranged attacks in melee (increases AC vs. OAs for ranged attacks in melee, or removes them all together).

Anynow. If there can be a TWF Ranger, and it be different and yet work for a TWF Fighter (Tempest), I think you can do a ranged defender.

 

[Minigiant]

If most of it's attacks are ranged, wouldn't they become useless in the situation that want to be (surrounded).

Wait for the PsyWarrior. He'll get Hypnosis. At least my homebrew one does.

 

[DracoSuave]

So what you're saying then, is you need a defender that has the ability to use the occasional ranged attack to attract the monster to him. A full ranged suite won't cut it, because the defender can't defend at close ranged without melee ability.

So, you're really more looking for someone who takes the occasional ranged attack but is primarily close range.

In otherwords, a Charisma Paladin or a Swordmage.

What you want already exists.

 

[Rechan]

If most of it's attacks are ranged, wouldn't they become useless in the situation that want to be (surrounded).

Not if those ranged attacks vary, from Ranged: One target to 'Close Burst 5, Target: One Enemy' (thus allowing it to be used in melee) to reducing the penalties of ranged attacks in melee.

 

[Rechan]

So what you're saying then, is you need a defender that has the ability to use the occasional ranged attack to attract the monster to him. A full ranged suite won't cut it, because the defender can't defend at close ranged without melee ability.

No. I don't want melee attacks at all, no melee weapons at all. Swordmages and Charisma paladins use those. They also don't have the powers I"m talking about.

Not to mention that, due to exception based design, there's nothing preventing one to change the rules for this class to use ranged attacks in melee (or reduce the penalties for that).

 

[Minigiant]

Not if those ranged attacks vary, from Ranged: One target to 'Close Burst 5, Target: One Enemy' (thus allowing it to be used in melee) to reducing the penalties of ranged attacks in melee.

No. I don't want melee attacks at all, no melee weapons at all. Swordmages and Charisma paladins use those. They also don't have the powers I"m talking about.

Not to mention that, due to exception based design, there's nothing preventing one to change the rules for this class to use ranged attacks in melee (or reduce the penalties for that).

So after you attract the orc, and he charges you... what does this character do?

Outside of mind control, I don't see it.

 

[Tenniel]

Defenders draw a line in the sand, say "come take a piece of me" and then stand there taking it on the chin. You can't do that a distance easily, but let's give it a go.

Maybe a Psiloi/Peltast/Skirmishers class, that harries the enemy and backs off, enouraging them (e.g. marking and pulling) to follow up. Also maybe in lieu of hp/surges they have avoidance powers.

Sample power:

Provocative Strike Peltast Attack-1
At Will
Standard Action Ranged Weapon
Effect: You may shift 1 sq before or after the attack
Attack: Dex vs AC
Hit:1[W]. If the target is adjacent to an ally you pull the target 1 square (If you have marked the target, you instead pull them your Cha modifier squares).

The challenges are eventually you would have expect the brute to engage the defender and in defending against multiple targets.

Maybe the solution is a hybrid class (defender/controller or defender/striker) to reflect that you are not a full time defender.

 

[Rechan]

So after you attract the orc, and he charges you... what does this character do?

Ranged Martial Defender:

Class Feature: Point Blank Shot. You gain a bonus to AC equal to your Con score against Opportunity attacks for using your ranged weapon in melee.
(Design Note: This is on par with archer rangers getting Defensive Mobility free, or Artful Dodgers gaining +Cha bonus versus OAs)


Shoving Shot
At Will Martial Weapon
Standard Ranged Weapon Melee1
Atk: Dex vs Ref.
Hit: Push the target 1 square, then make a basic ranged attack against the target.
(Design Notes: Mechanically, I took Opening Shove (Martial Power, 103) and replaced the Str vs. Ref with Dex vs. Ref. Openign Shove states 'choose an ally, that ally can shift one or make a basic attack vs. the target'. In this instance, the defender makes the attack. It is on par with 'Nimble Strike' (Which lets a ranger move out of melee and make an attack) and Tide of Iron; it allows the character to move the enemy out of OA range, and then shoot them.)


Hit Me Right Here
Encounter * Martial Weapon
Standard Ranged Weapon
Attack: Dex Vs. AC
Hit: 2[W]+Dex damage.
Effect: If the target hits you with an Opportunity Attack, you do extra damage equal to 2 + Con Mod.

(Design Notes: This power gives the ranged defender an incentive to use this power in melee. I took inspiration from the various Bravura Warlord 'enemy makes basic attack against you, if it takes it, your friends get bonuses' and instead made it 'if the enemy hits you, you do more damage', which seems to be a more defender-y thing. This is on par with the various Fighter powers that grant extra damage equal to con if using a certain weapon. The reason I said 2+Con is to facilitate the way some powers are bumped if you pick a certain build.

Since this class doesn't have multiple builds, I'm factoring the 2+Con in to demonstrate. If this was a true CLASS, then it would likely look like (You do 2 extra damage. If you are of X build, then you instead do 2+Con damage.)

Yes, I'm aware that if multiple opponents flank the defender, then he's only getting the benefit of one OA and the ohters are getting it in free. That's the threat here. I can imagine a Daily stance power which allows the defender to add Con mod to damage for each OA for melee ranged that comes his way as long as the stance is maintained, but that is premaure.)


Bleeding Barrage
Daily * Martial Weapon
Standard Close Blast 3
Requirement: You must be wielding a ranged weapon.
Target: Each enemy in blast you can see.
Attack: Dex vs. AC
Hit: 2[W]+dex damage.
Miss: Half damage.

(Design Notess: Completely ripped off the rogue's 'Blinding Barrage'. The rogue's damage output is limited due to his weapon selection, but the rogue gets to blind the target (a very powerful status effect). I off-set this by removing the blinding status. This power however lacks any real zazz.)

 

[Rechan]

As I worked on that, a few thoughts generally came to me.

First being I can imagine a ranged defender could pick between dex attacks (for ranged weapons), or Str based for heavy thrown weapons.

But more from a design perspective, I can see a lot of places to look for inspiration. The Barbarian is a mobile melee striker who just screams 'HIT ME'. He has benefits for being attacked (one of which is doing more damage on a particular power if a target makes a basic attack against him). The Bravura Warlord also gives monsters reason to attack (granting them basic attacks); if he's attacked, others get bonuses. Both of these classes emphasize the enemy punishing the target, and in general making themselves very big fat targets. The Battlerage Vigor fighter gains a benefit from being hit, in a very defendery fashion (he gets temp HP instead of more damage or benefits his friends). The trick here is linking range, defenderness, and getting hit together somehow.

To address the ranged defender making ranged attacks in melee (and doing things once he's managed to get targets to pursue him), I can see effects that constitute 'enemy can make an OA against you, but if it does, it gets penalized or you get a benefit'. Just like any other effect in the game, the monster should be aware of what's coming (the book says that the target of a power, like a mark, or any other effect, understands what's happening to it).

For the Martial ranged defender, the mark that transfers damage doesn't make as much sense. Aside from a marking mechanism like Combat Superiority, allowing the RD to make a ranged attack if a target doesn't attack him, I can't think of one. But I think that an auto-ranged attack if the RD isn't targeted is too powerful because it has no limitation; the Fighter has to be in melee to benefit, so he is limited by foes being adjacent. The RD would dominate the field if he could just attack anyone for not attacking him. One solution might be to reduce the damage that a RD would do; a flat 1[W] instead of 1[W]+Dex. This might put it a little closer in the neck of the woods to the Paladin's divine challenge. Although, the Swordmage does get to port over and get a free attack, but he's still limited by having to mark someone in a burst 2 to begin with, and he ends up completely moved, too, exposed to the monster.

A possibility beyond the Transference mark for a non-Martial Ranged Defender would be an effect that 'If target does not attack you, and it hits someone else, it must make an immediate second attack. If this second attack hits your AC (or other relevent defense), the attack is resolved to have hit you instead.'

Other potential powers I do like would be basically taking a condition that an ally is suffering and transfer it to yourself. (This is different from Leaders who let PCs make extra saving throws.) Finally, a Martial Ranged Defender class feature could be an encounter power that is as follows: Immediate Reaction, when bloodied from a melee attack, make a basic ranged attack that does not provoke OAs.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more a Martial Ranged Defender might not work, simply due to contriveness. Simply because I can't think of an efficient way for a MRD to pull a target towards him/an elegant method for a mark. An Arcane/Divine ranged Defender can get away with more close bursts and blasts in melee (to avoid OAs) as well as ranged attacks. But if the class can use several Close attacks, there's less incentive to use straight Ranged powers to cause OAs in order to gain benefits.