Ranged Defender: Doable?

[DracoSuave]

I dunno, it's missing something. For example, 'Let's Dance' is NOT the exact same as booming blade, because booming blade doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity should the number of foes in contact with you exceed one.

That's a major flaw with the ranged defender is that he's sucking up a ton of OAs just to do his schtick.

 

[77IM]

"Cover me!!!"
-- many, many action-movie characters


I think a ranged defender should be perfectly doable, and different from a controller. A defender draws fire away from his teammates, particularly the squishy wizards and low-Con strikers. So a defender needs powers that make him a more attractive target; this seems different from the mez powers and battlefield control of a wizard (who makes it hard to attack anyone, including himself).


How about this class feature:

Suppression
When you target a foe with a ranged attack on your turn, they become marked until the end of your next turn. A marked target who charges you, attacks you, or moves towards you, does not provoke any opportunity attacks from anyone for doing so. If a marked target within 12 squares of you and within short range of your ranged basic attack performs any other action that provokes opportunity attacks, you may make a ranged opportunity attack against them. You don't provoke opportunity attacks from a marked target.


This (or something like it; I just pulled this out of thin air, so consider it a rough draft) should allow both you and your marked foe to run in circles around the battlefield, keeping the heat off the wizard. To me, that qualifies as a ranged defender.

-- 77IM

 

[Rechan]

I dunno, it's missing something. For example, 'Let's Dance' is NOT the exact same as booming blade, because booming blade doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity should the number of foes in contact with you exceed one.

Except that who says he needs to use it when he's all ready surrounded? Opening up with it is fine.

Plus, he is getting that Con bonus to AC vs. OAs.

 

[Rechan]

"Cover me!!!"
-- many, many action-movie characters


I think a ranged defender should be perfectly doable, and different from a controller. A defender draws fire away from his teammates, particularly the squishy wizards and low-Con strikers. So a defender needs powers that make him a more attractive target; this seems different from the mez powers and battlefield control of a wizard (who makes it hard to attack anyone, including himself).


How about this class feature:

Suppression
When you target a foe with a ranged attack on your turn, they become marked until the end of your next turn. A marked target who charges you, attacks you, or moves towards you, does not provoke any opportunity attacks from anyone for doing so. If a marked target within 12 squares of you and within short range of your ranged basic attack performs any other action that provokes opportunity attacks, you may make a ranged opportunity attack against them. You don't provoke opportunity attacks from a marked target.

That's really interesting and useful; thanks. Tieing the limitation of OAs to the Mark (while allowing the enemy certain benefits to offset this) is a very elegant solution.

 

[Rechan]

Thus far, we've been discussing the Ranged Defender making himself a prime target for melee opponents, pulling enemies towards him to get them to engage him in melee. But one thing that I would really like to see is that the Ranged Defender makes himself a prime target for Ranged Enemies. A fighter is useless against drawing Artiller/Controller fire unless he's right next to them. Sure, brutes and skirmishers and the like are nasty, but a ranged defender can shoot across the battlefield and nail that pesky enemy archer, or that enemy controller; as a Defender, he should make himself a juicy target for those guys, so they can't concentrate fire on his softer friends at range.

Part of this strategy would constitute the RD moving away from his friends, and then drawing the enemy controller's fire. The idea being the controller wastes an Area Effect (or a powerful single-target ranged effect) on the defender, rather than hitting multiple allies of the RD.

 

[Minigiant]

Dealing with ranged attacker was traditional the strikers and controllers jobs. In the past it was the rogues and archers who bypass the enemy melee in attempts of damaging the annoying ranged guys. Typically fighter deals with these guys by getting too close and making them waste actions running away. That's typically the only way to stop the backline: Kill them or take away actions.


When my elf ranger wants to shoot someone, she does. You can drop your AC to 0 and offer me a cake but as long as that wizard has a pesky cloud spell up, I'm shooting him. I had -8 to attack rolls and I still shot the mage. Because I still had the option and he was the most important target.
Slow me. I still shooting that guy.
Immobilize me. I still shooting that guy.
Daze me. Still have an action. I still shooting that guy.

Damage dealers attack however they want. Escpecially ranged damage dealers. The only thing you can do is make them not attack... or kill them. Only the most powerful conditions work and spamming stun (save ends) is broken.

That why you send the sneaky guy with the dagger to chase me around screaming "HELP!".

 

[77IM]

But one thing that I would really like to see is that the Ranged Defender makes himself a prime target for Ranged Enemies.

I tried to build this into my Suppression idea. Assuming the marked target is a monster with ranged attacks:

• If the marked target is adjacent to one of your allies, he can attack you safely with a ranged attack because it doesn't provoke.
• If the marked target tries to attack someone else with a ranged attack, this provokes from you (provided he is within 12 squares of you) and from anyone else who's threatened zone he happens to be in.

I like your idea of the ranged defender separating from the party and getting enemies to waste their area attacks on him. That sounds perfect to me. I envision a ranged defender as a sort of "distraction."

-- 77IM

 

[Rechan]

Those are some good ideas 77IM, but I am afraid of the mark getting a bit bloated at that point. Although...

Two flaws I see in that are this: 1) A ranged attacker is likely going to want to get the hell away from anyone next to him, so attacking you is the least of his worries. 2) Like I said, I think that allowing a ranged basic against anyone who doesn't attack the RD (especially if he marks more than one target).

On the topic of more powers, I did have an idea for a ranged attack which hits the target, and marks all enemies adjacent to the target.

 

[Rechan]

Not to cast animate dead on a horse to beat it some more, but...

Take a look at the Warden. It's a defender in melee, yes. But it is very controller-like. Hitting everyone in a close burst and saying "You can't shift until the end of my next turn"? Creating difficult terrain? Knocking down enemies and making them stay down? Not to mention its marking technique. It is Very Controller-like, even for a Defender.

So I think that taking the notions of the Warden and applying them at ranged is possible. The threat that 'then it just becomes a straight controller' is valid, but again, with the points of this thread, the Ranged Defender would need to draw fire, and handle opponents when they reach him in melee.

 

[andy3k]

I would like to revive this dead thread because I'm interested in the possibility of a ranged defender and nothing truly awesome or final was established.

Here are some possible ideas to add to the mix.

The Pet
Like the Ranger and the Shaman, let's give our ranged defender a pet. The intention is for the bad guys to attack the pet, not the character. Feats, class abilities, and powers can give the defender the ability to transfer his HP or healing surges to the pet. This meets the criteria of encouraging bad guys to attack the defender (or representative thereof) and not the other PCs. If we use marks, the mark guides the bad guy to attack the pet, or the defender himself if the pet is down for the count.

The Pledge
Instead of marking bad guys, let's "mark" good guys. Marks on bad guys feel offensive. Let's "pledge" the PCs and then the defender can punish anyone who attacks the pledged PC (limited to the usual number of immediate actions that defenders may make). Make the immediate action punishments close area attacks with a range of 5 or 10 so he can punish effectively but at a distance. The higher in level you go, and depending on the powers you choose, the more PCs you can pledge.

Ranged and Close
Let's give the ranged defender two branches of powers. Some of his powers are ranged (single or multiple opponents, close burst 1 at 10, etc.), and mostly concentrate on causing the bad guys to attack the pet, while some close area attacks so he can defend himself if he is melee assaulted.