Ranged Defender: Doable?

[CrimsonHawk]

Call me really, really weird, but I think maybe... just maybe... a ranged defender might be doable. [link] Maybe it's just me, though.

(With apologies to FF6Shadow for my drama in introducing his material.)

 

[Minigiant]

Shoving Shot is a striker power. It seperates you from the target and damages it. It's basically Nimble Strike.

Hit Me Right Here is another striker power. It penalizes you for attacking it. It has the same effect as Hellish Rebuke.

Bleeding Barrage is either ANOTHER striker power or a controller one. It's straight AOE damage.

Being a defender is about making the melee enemy's only choice to attack you, then stripping that choice away. Doing this with ranged and close attack is unnatural or contrived because you'll seem to be breaking rules just because.

 

[Rechan]

Shoving Shot is a striker power. It seperates you from the target and damages it. It's basically Nimble Strike.

So is Opening Shove a striker power?

Hit Me Right Here is another striker power. It penalizes you for attacking it. It has the same effect as Hellish Rebuke.

So is the Bravura Warlord a striker? Because he penalizes enemies for attacking him.

Bleeding Barrage is either ANOTHER striker power or a controller one. It's straight AOE damage.

And it works so well for the Swordmage. Or is he a striker or controller?

And why is AOE a striker power? There are several defender powers which are straight damage, too, with no defender qualities; Brute Strike, etc.

 

[evilgenius8000]

Why does the charisma paladin keep getting brought up as a ranged defender? If a class's only ranged powers are dailies (except for a scant 4 encounter powers), then that pretty much means its not a ranged class, considering you won't be able to keep your challenge on an enemy at range most of the time.

 

[Minigiant]

So is Opening Shove a striker power?


So is the Bravura Warlord a striker? Because he penalizes enemies for attacking him.

And it works so well for the Swordmage. Or is he a striker or controller?

And why is AOE a striker power? There are several defender powers which are straight damage, too, with no defender qualities; Brute Strike, etc.

Warlords grant bonuses to his allies. The Bravura Warlord penalizes enemies by granting attacks and CA to his allies. When you do that to yourself, it's pure damage. If all your attacks deal pure damage, you are leaning to striker.

 

[Rechan]

Warlords grant bonuses to his allies. The Bravura Warlord penalizes enemies by granting attacks and CA to his allies. When you do that to yourself, it's pure damage. If all your attacks deal pure damage, you are leaning to striker.

Several fighter powers lean themselves to damage. Including the fighter powers that grant extra damage based on weapon choice. Brute strike: Pure damage. Frost Backlash: Pure damage (and it happens when someone attacks you, to boot!). Reaping Strike, Cleave, Reckless Strike, Burning Blade, Flame Cyclone, Corrosive Ruin, Crushing Blow, Armor Piercing Thrust, and that's just within the first tier.

The fighter also pushes/slides enemies. Footloose Lure, Tide of Iron, etc. There's no difference between 'you attack them, and push them' and 'you push them, and attack them'.

Also, the RD's powers aren't all pure damage. I was asked 'what does the RD when it gets someone to come engage it'. When the RD has been engaged, they have done that defender part (get the enemy to come to me). I have discussed earlier in this thread what those defender powers would constitute: bringing the enemy closer. For instance, if I had added a status effect to 'Bleeding Barrage', you'd have called it a controller instead of a striker.

I could easily argue that the Swordmage is all damage. He's doing all kinds of damage all over the place. He has area affects which are just 'pure damage'. That he's too much a striker or a controller, by your standards.

 

[Rechan]

But fine. The ranged defender doesn't do enough defender-ing.

Dance!
At-Will
Standard Ranged Attack
Attack: Dex vs. AC
Hit: 1[w]+Dex damage, and if the target does not move towards you on its next turn, it takes 1d6+Con damage.

That is exactly like Booming Blade, except instead of keeping the opponent beside you, it makes them come towards you. It's also a Defender version of Dire Radiance; instead of penalizing for coming closer, it damages if the target doesn't.

 

[DracoSuave]

Why does the charisma paladin keep getting brought up as a ranged defender? If a class's only ranged powers are dailies (except for a scant 4 encounter powers), then that pretty much means its not a ranged class, considering you won't be able to keep your challenge on an enemy at range most of the time.

Step 1: Challenge enemy at range.
Step 2: Enemy goes to you, is now no longer at range.
Step 3: ??????
Step 4: Profit.

The problem with the 'Ranged Defender' as a concept is you've got steps 1 and 2 down, but step 3 is this nebulous 'What do I do know?' concept. You pull the enemy to you... and then promptly do nothing with him.

The ranged part is an opener. It's the first step. It is not the game plan of defending, however, because once they close to melee (which they WILL do), ranged stuff had all better come with free shifts or you're not using them. By -necessity- you'll have to start wacking them with something other than your bow.

So, your ranged attacks are, defacto, the attacks you don't use often. That would mean that dailies designed as openers would fulfill that role nicely. That's a Charisma Paladin right there.

Swordmages have some ranged as well, and that's as close to 'ranged defender' as you can get. The concept of 'defender' is somewhat antithetical to 'all ranged character.'

Here's another way to play a 'ranged' defender. Give your heavy blade fighter a long bow. Use Ranged Basic Attack to mark them. When they finally reach you, open up your can of melee whoop ass.

 

[Patlin]

Step 1: Challenge enemy at range.
Step 2: Enemy goes to you, is now no longer at range.
Step 3: ??????
Step 4: Profit.

With a shielding swordmage, I've occasionally managed:

Step 1: Challenge enemy at range.
Step 2: Enemy can't get to you.
Step 3: Enemy is ineffective against your friends.
Step 4: Profit.

Not truly a ranged attacker, but in some ways similar.

 

[Rechan]

The problem with the 'Ranged Defender' as a concept is you've got steps 1 and 2 down, but step 3 is this nebulous 'What do I do know?' concept. You pull the enemy to you... and then promptly do nothing with him.

Have you not been reading the rest of the thread? I have presented options for what the ranged defender does once he gets the enemy to him: he uses his ranged weapon in melee. Or he has various range-simulated effects (such as bursts and blasts).

The Charisma Paladin is a bad example, because the charisma paladin uses dailies for those ranged effects. That's fantastic, using your daily on just any tough monster you want to drag towards you. Notice youc an't do that every fight, so there goes your ranged effectiveness.