Ranged Defender: Doable?

[Zaran]

I think the problem with a Ranged Defender is that they would need some sort of penalty for avoiding monsters. The Charisma Paladin has this because they have to engage their foe. If I made an archer that could set up on the cliff above the fight and never be able to to attacked but could mark and pluck arrows at the foes all day that to me is overpowered. If I was designing a class like that I would probably give them low defenses and ASSUME that they would avoid melee at all costs. This really sounds like a controller to me.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

One of the benefits of being in a party with a defender is that damage to you can be mitigated because the marked enemy is encouraged to attack the defender. So what about a marking ability where if an enemy marked by the defender hits a creature other than the defender, the creature the enemy hit gains X temporary hit points and the defender loses X hit points.

I don't know what else to do with it but it could be a way for a ranged defender to take some of the heat off of his allies even if he isn't in melee to take a direct attack.

 

[Zaran]

One of the benefits of being in a party with a defender is that damage to you can be mitigated because the marked enemy is encouraged to attack the defender. So what about a marking ability where if an enemy marked by the defender hits a creature other than the defender, the creature the enemy hit gains X temporary hit points and the defender loses X hit points.

I don't know what else to do with it but it could be a way for a ranged defender to take some of the heat off of his allies even if he isn't in melee to take a direct attack.

That could work although I do not recollect any sort of character in fantasy adventure that could do such a thing. Which inventing a class just because such a combo doesn't exist isn't enough for me. Then again I could say that for a couple of the classes we already have.

 

[andy3k]

Zaran:
So you are saying that the defender is encouraged to mix it up with those he is marking? Fine. Give the ranged defender lower than normal damage and he does extra damage (bringing it up to average defender damage) for hitting marked foes. Now I have the standard ranged advantage of having more foes to choose from when attacking but I'm handicapped for not attacking a marked foe. Or, if he marks every time he attacks instead of the mark and forget implied above, maybe he is limited to marking creatures within burst X of his pet (though he can still attack anyone).

If we use the Pledge instead of the Mark, he only gets his bonus damage if he attacks foes within burst X (starting at burst 1) of pledged allies (or his pet).

Wednesday Boy: HP transfer was discussed earlier in this thread and it is a distinct possibility. We could have a healing build of the ranged defender and a damaging build.

 

[Gryph]

I think you could build a fairly compelling Swordmage build that incorporarted powers to force teleport targets to them rather than some of the existing that teleport the swordmage to a target.

My regular group includes a 5th level swordmage. His biggest weakness compared to other defenders we've had, is simply holding a piece of ground to deny enemies access to party members behind him.

 

[Herschel]

So what you're saying then, is you need a defender that has the ability to use the occasional ranged attack to attract the monster to him. A full ranged suite won't cut it, because the defender can't defend at close ranged without melee ability.

So, you're really more looking for someone who takes the occasional ranged attack but is primarily close range.

In otherwords, a Charisma Paladin or a Swordmage.

What you want already exists.

This. Any time you channel the attacks towards yourself of melee characters/enemies, you'll cease to be at range yourself.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Some of the ideas have aspects of the ranger, the avenger, the swordmage, etc.

Some ideas:

Martial/Primal ... the 'archer' type. Mark on attacks. If the marked target makes an attack that doesn't include the marker, or if it ends it's turn farther away from the marker, immediate action attack. Give him some powers to pull the target closer. Some other control effects (the class would definitely be secondary controller) including entangling, knocking prone, and interupting opponent's attacks. Basically things like cover fire, discouraging enemies from going in a certain direction, etc. And then give them the abilty to use the bow as a quarterstaff in melee, and give so "bowstaff" attack powers in addition to som close blasts with arrows. Basically, they don't necessarily get engaged in melee, but when they do, they'll probably keep focussing on that one or end up provoking if they keep shooting at a ranged target.

Another idea is a more psionic/arcane class. Implement based, and they can have a mix of melee/close attacks to go along with ranged/area attacks. They'd likely have a close burst marking feature which can snag extra targets with levels, feats, power points, etc ... Probably a 'teleport you next to me' feature triggered off going after allies. This encourages them to engage you ... especially ranged attackers since attacking you stops them from ending up next to you, which is probably one of the few things they would really care about. For melee guys, they may not care as much ... if the option is engage you now, or a turn from now when you end up adjacent, they'll probably just attack your ally anyway. In that case, maybe when they get brought next to you there is another mini effect. Maybe they are also slowed/can't shift until EoNT (so at least attacking you directly they could shift away and charge someone else afterwards). The idea would likely be the class would be less sticky, but have a better way of getting the enemies back to them. I think this can actually be handled by a Ensnarement Swordmage already ... the only thing being that his aegis requires the enemy hit to be used, requires you be close to put the Aegis on in the first place, but other than that, sort of accomplishes the main thrust of this kind of character ... pulling someone next to him when they attack anyone but him. This is probably the best "anti-ranged enemy" ranged defender.

 

[andy3k]

"Any time you channel the attacks towards yourself of melee characters/enemies, you'll cease to be at range yourself."

So you need something to beat on other than you (ranged defender) or the other PCs. That's where my defender pet comes in. You adventure around with a pet ... let's call it a golem for the time being ... and your marks and/or powers direct the foes to attack the golem, leaving you available to cast ranged stuff.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The one idea that jumped out at me in this thread was that the job of a dedicated ranged defender would be to take the heat of enemy artillery (and ranged controllers or skirmishers) off his allies. That's pretty specialized, since artillery is hardly a feature of every combat. It could be a very important take on the role in, say, a modern-era setting where ranged attacks are much more prevelent.

Still, if you wanted to do it, you could create a fighter build for it. It'd be tough, since, like the archer-Warlord build, you'd need to add a lot of ranged powers, too.

The build would trade in the fighter's major defender features:


Archer's Challenge:(Replaces Combat Challenge)When you make an attack roll against an enemy, you can choose to mark that enemy until the end of your next turn. If an enemy marked by you, and within range of your weapon makes a ranged or area attack that does not include you as a target, you may make a ranged basic attack against that enemy as an opportunity action; this ranged basic attack ignores the benefit of any cover (or superior cover) the enemy has at the moment it makes the triggering attack. If an enemy marked by you and not adjacent to you or any ally moves or shifts to become adjacent to an ally of yours and is within your weapon's range, you may make a ranged basic attack against that enemy as an opportunity action.

Command of the Field:(replaces Combat Superiority)You have a field of fire within a close blast of your weapon's short range. This field includes all squares within the blast that do not have cover or concealment from you, and which are not adjacent to (or occupied by) your allies. Establishing a field of fire is a minor action, and it is defined relative to you (if you are pushed back, so is your field of fire). You can change the relative position of your field of fire as a minor action. When an enemy attempts to enter your field of fire, you can make a ranged basic attack targeting that enemy as an immediate interrupt. If the attack hits, the enemy is forced back along his path of movement until he is no longer in your field of fire, and may not enter your field of fire again on his current turn. When an enemy who starts his turn in your field of fire ends his turn there, you can make a ranged basic attack targeting that enemy as an immediate reaction. Enemies who have cover or concealment from you for any reason (such as invisiblity) are not deemed to be within your field of fire.


The ranged fighter would take the two-handed weapon talent if using a bow or the one-handed weapon talent if using thrown weapons.


It would, of course, require a whole set of ranged-weapon powers.


When ranged enemies aren't involved in a combat, this character could act as a secondary controller or striker, inconveniencing the enemy's tactical and concentrating fire on whichever enemy seems most vulnerable. It's mark still works, but it will mostly just give the -2 penalty, much like a conventional fighter in an all-ranged combat.

 

[Chris Knapp]

World Speaker Shamans (and to a lesser extent, Bear Shamans) make passable defenders. The world speaker's op attack that causes the move action to end is pretty cool IMO. Only downside is that the spirit's AC is usually pretty low.