Ranger Balance

[Saeviomagy]

It seems to me that a Level 1 Ranger with Twin Strike and Quarry is way too loc. Basically, with a longbow, you can max out at 26hp on one person in one attach - usually around 14 - 18hp. Add on top of that the feat which adds an extra 10 to his range... woof!

And a rogue can target reflex, have an attack roll 2 points higher and hit for around the same damage. (dagger, backstabber, +4/+2 primary/secondary stat mods).

The only person really falling behind is the warlock, but if the warlock is smart, he can be whacking out 3d6+10 in a round OR controlling the battlefield to a significant degree (if he applies the secondary effects of the infernal or star at-wills properly).

I don't disagree that twin strike is a problem, but it's not really a problem at the levels and numbers you're talking about. Where it really becomes a problem is when you start stacking on damage modifiers and other bonus damage (like crit dice), and the exact same thing happens with every single multi-attack power. Someone striking 3 times effectively get triple benefit from every single damage boost currently in the game, except ironically striker bonus damage.

 

[Baumi]

It seems to me that a Level 1 Ranger with Twin Strike and Quarry is way too loc. Basically, with a longbow, you can max out at 26hp on one person in one attach - usually around 14 - 18hp. Add on top of that the feat which adds an extra 10 to his range... woof!

How do you get your average 14-18 damage? Did you add Dex to it, because that would be wrong..

On average you should have one hit with 10 damage (5.5 (longbow) + 4.5 (d8 Quarry with Feat) ). Which is nice because it is quite easy to get it thanks to your two attacks, but it is not THAT high that it should outshine everyone.

 

[Lauberfen]

As mentioned above, ranged rangers lack most of the controlling functions that other strikers have.

I the experience of my group, we've seen 1 ranged ranger in the first party, then none more since (in about 5 parties up to 9th level or so).

The consensus- pure ranged damage dealing is boring.

 

[bganon]

Try mixing up encounters a bit, like people have suggested. This can be a little tricky at level one since there aren't any monsters of lower level, but you can add some variety by scaling level 2-3 monsters down or just reskin level 1 monsters with different descriptions.

Also, yeah, if you're outside all the time the range is going to be awesome. But most indoor maps don't have rooms more than 12 squares across. Plus... use the stealth rules. Gnome skulks can be a major pain in the ass with some good Stealth rolls by the DM.

Or encounters like a "Wolf pack"... at level 1, three kobold skirmishers, eight minions, and a spiretop drake shouldn't even be a major challenge for 5 PCs, but with that much mobility you should be able to mob everyone and make the archer's life a lot more interesting. And if the archer is really dishing out so much damage, there's good reason for the monsters to mob her. Monsters can run and charge too, which means they can possibly close 16 squares per round. The ranger can't get everybody.

In my party the archer does mostly put out a constant stream of huge damage. But even with good AC she has a tendency to get hurt quickly in melee, and the fighter can't always intercept all the monsters. Some encounters she rocks out and does most of the killing, but in others she'll take bad hits early on and spend most of the encounter dodging about or unconscious. And the warlock tends to be more effective against creatures with high AC (like soldiers).

 

[Piratecat]

How do you get your average 14-18 damage? Did you add Dex to it, because that would be wrong..

Right. Remember, dex bonus isn't added to twin strike's damage.

Our 3rd lvl bow ranger is effective but not dominating the party. Our 4th lvl melee ranger in the other group is a little sub-optimal when compared to the two brutal rogues.

 

[Stalker0]

Our 3rd lvl bow ranger is effective but not dominating the party. Our 4th lvl melee ranger in the other group is a little sub-optimal when compared to the two brutal rogues.

I definitely think the melee ranger isn't as good as the bow ranger. The main reason is such:

1) Strength is weaker than Dex. Dexterity provides bonuses to INIT and AC compared to what strength can do...its generally a better stat.

2) Low AC. Which brings up the next point. Melee rangers have terrible AC if they don't pick up Chain proficiency. In fact a houserule my group considered was dropping toughness as the melee ranger bonus feat and just given them chain proficiency as I can't see a ranger not taking it. However, even with chain they often have less AC than a bow ranger.

3) Melee vs Ranged vs Bow Ranged: If everything else is equal ranged wins, and the bow ranger has a range no other class gets even close to competing with. A bow ranger can sit at 40 squares, throw a quarry on someone, and go to town. Rogues have to be smarter and sneakier to get their SA...and will likely get it less often.

But its not just the offense. The range difference is so great monsters often simply can't hit the ranger. A rogue at 10 squares with his crossbow is open season for most ranged monster, a ranger at 20 is much harder to hit, and a ranger at 30 is generally out of range for almost all monsters.

 

[Regicide]

But its not just the offense. The range difference is so great monsters often simply can't hit the ranger. A rogue at 10 squares with his crossbow is open season for most ranged monster, a ranger at 20 is much harder to hit, and a ranger at 30 is generally out of range for almost all monsters.

Being at 30 squares on a published map is practically impossible.

I could see flying rangers being an issue, but a lot if not most stuff is indoors anyway.

 

[Nail]

Being at 30 squares on a published map is practically impossible.

Depends.

In KotS, the first section of the adventure is outdoors. It's (theoretically) possible for the terrain to give LoS to 30 squares. As I look at the maps spread out on the desk in front of me, I find that not possible without the DM expanding the map beyond the poster map borders (and not recognizing cover from trees).

After that section of the adventure, everything else is inside, and no LoS goes farter than ~10 squares. Put another way: everyone is with charging range.

To the OP: If you are finding the Bow Ranger is taking stuff down too quickly, you need to think more closely about encounter design (as has been mentioned several times above). You may also have an error on the PC's sheet calculating damage. <shrug>

 

[DracoSuave]

Yay math time.

Average damage for a ranger's Twin Strike is

pd+pd+(p+p(1-p))q

or

2p(d+q) - qp^2

Where p is probability to hit, d is average damage of the weapon, and q is average quarry damage.

Assuming nonmagical longbow, with 50% chance to hit, level 1, average damage is:

2p(d+q) - qp^2

1(5.5+3.5) - 3.5/4

9-7/8

8.125 damage.

13-14 is rediculous.

 

[Elric]

Yay math time.

Average damage for a ranger's Twin Strike is

pd+pd+(p+p(1-p))q

or

2p(d+q) - qp^2

Where p is probability to hit, d is average damage of the weapon, and q is average quarry damage.

Assuming nonmagical longbow, with 50% chance to hit, level 1, average damage is:

2p(d+q) - qp^2

1(5.5+3.5) - 3.5/4

9-7/8

8.125 damage.

13-14 is rediculous.

At level 1, your chance to hit a level 1 monster with baseline AC of 15 (14+level) should be above 50% (of course, at level 1 there aren't any level 0 monsters to fight so the average monster level will be higher than 1). An 18 Dex character with a +2 proficiency bow will have a +6 to hit, for a 60% chance to hit. A 20 Dex character (and Bow Rangers are one of the classes that can get away with a 20 the most easily) with a +2 prof bow has a +7 to hit.

Also, you haven't included crits- and note that Quarry damage is maxed on a critical hit. So if you take all of that into account, and I've done the math correctly, a 20-Dex 1st level Ranger with a Greatbow (d12 damage superior weapon) does an average of 12.315 damage per round with Twin Strike against a quarry with 15 AC.

At level 2 if you have a +1 Greatbow and take Weapon Focus your damage per round with Twin Strike against a quarry with 16 AC is already at 16.23 average damage