Ranger - likes and dislikes?

[The_Gneech]

Well, here's a question for everyone: If the Ranger's Animal Companion was at (Ranger Level - 2) instead of 1/2 of, would it be worthwhile, being only two levels behind the Druid's? Is it still too weak?

And what "animal buffing spells" is the Ranger missing? He has (Greater) Magic Fang & Animal Growth.

Well, since the animal companion is gained @ 4th, "Ranger - 3" seems the natural value; I have yet to figure out why they chose "Ranger / 2" other than so that animal companions would get killed all the time.

-The Gneech

 

[Steverooo]

Well, since the animal companion is gained @ 4th, "Ranger - 3" seems the natural value; I have yet to figure out why they chose "Ranger / 2" other than so that animal companions would get killed all the time.

Well, the problem that I see with that is, a Ranger's caster level (assuming he has a WIS of 12+) begins @ 2, at fourth level. Using (Ranger Level - 2) for both caster level AND Animal Companion keeps it all together, without weakening the Ranger's spellcasting when he first gets first-level spells. Using (Ranger Level - 3) weakens range, duration, etc., even though he'd gain it back in a few levels.

As for why Rangers get an Animal Companion of half their level, the PHB says that they aren't supposed to be used as a combatant. Also, I think a lot of it has to do with allowing Druids to be at the top of their "animal schtick". YMMV.

 

[Steverooo]

Hey, here's a crazy idea!

INSTEAD of an Animal Companion, let's add a spell to the Druid & Ranger's spell lists (as well as the Animal Domain), and call it something like... oh, I don't know... Animal Friendship, perhaps? This spell works only upon Animals or Beasts (yes, I know they removed Beasts in 3.5e, but I'm adding it back!*) Then, a Druid, Ranger, or Cleric of the Animal Domain can cast Animal Friendship and acquire an Animal Companion of his hit dice or less, without needing a Feat or class ability! If the Player wants, they can have any one-hit-die Animal or Beast as an Animal Friend at the start of the game (and add a note stating such, for the benefit of GMs). Alternately, they can adventure until they gain levels and encounter something they want to "keep", and then Animal Friendship that (like my 1E Druid, whose party was attacked by a Roc)!

WOW! What an idea! What a concept! (Huh? Whaddaya mean, "They did that in 1E!"?)

*"Beast" was removed from 3.0e because it was ill-defined. It should be reintroduced and redefined. "Animals" have no magical abilities, and are currently (and in 3e) limited to INT 2 or less. We know that many real-world animals have IQs above 20. This restriction needs to be removed, and raised to INT 6, or so. "Beast" gets the same, and "Magical Beast" remains for the higher INT, talking, spellcasting, and/or magically empowered creatures. "Beast" is reserved for creatures with:

* INT 6 or less.
* Not a creature native to (our) Earth, neither now, nor in the past (thus excluding known dinosaurs, but allowing for "made up" ones).
* Can be alien, mutated, and/or "Combination" creatures.

Moorcock's "Creatures of Ratik" (vulture-headed lions) might qualify, here, although they might also be Magical Beasts. His Clakars (winged Orangutans) certainly fit, here. Likewise, winged kitty-cats are "Beasts", while Runequest's Shadowcats are Magical Beasts, due to their Shimmer ability.

 

[The_Gneech]

Well for that matter, why not make "Animal Companion" a feat that druids, wizards, sorcerers, and rangers get as a bonus feat at the appropriate level? Then you could have a whole "beastmastery" feat chain with Improved Animal Companion, Multiple Animal Companions, and so on...

-The Gneech

 

[TheLe]

Hey, thanks, TheLe! I got one of those, wondered what was up... I thought maybe you sent me a review copy because I reviewed Unorthodox Rangers, and just bought 17 Ranger Spells (which is another four stars, from me). Now we know!

What's up with the Spider King's Arachnid combat style, though? TWF isn't bad enough? He takes -2 on all attacks AND damage, but gains +1 (later +2) AC and a 10% (later 15%) chance to turn one hit/round into a miss, instead? Seems like a worse combat style to me!

Also, the cover shows him TWFing, but no mention is made of that in the class description, is it? Does the Spider King fight with all four limbs, or what?

[imager]http://www.thele.com/TheLeGames/images/tn/NeoRangers_TheSpiderKing_tn200w.jpg[/imager]LOL. Glad you enjoyed the book! There are a few things to keep in mind. The Spider-King is not really meant to make the Ranger into an uber-combatant. Rather, it is meant to make him more like a Spider-man class -- dodge + attack.

Sixth Sense is a 10% chance to avoid a successful attack. And this is always active. First the opponent has to get by your AC, then even if he hits you get an extra 10% chance to avoid it. That's a just a flat out DC 19 for every single attack (ranged and melee), no limits.

Arachnid Style Combat may reduce attack and damage rolls by -2, but you get +1 dodge bonus to AC, and an extra 5% to your Sixth Sense (effectively a flat out DC 18), making you even harder to hit.

By 7th level, you have a 20% Sixth Sense chance, +5% when using Arachnid Style. That's a flat out DC 16 to avoid every successful attack. That's assuming the opponent gets past your AC, which has a +2 dodge bonus with Arachnid Style.

Don't forget the Arachnid Style Mastery at 11th level, allowing 1 free AOO whenever you successfully pull off a Sixth Sense evade. Note that the last sentence of this ability explicitely says "The normal Arachnid Style penalties (–2 to attack and damage rolls) do not apply for this attack of opportunity."

By 16th level, Arachnid Style gives you +3 dodge bonus to AC, not to mention a +3 to initiative, giving you a better chance to get in a first attack.

As you can see, the Arachnid Style is not really meant to be "deadly" per say. Rather, it is meant to make the Ranger more nimble to peck away at your opponent. You get an initiative boost to get first attacks in or cast spells, then can sit back and dodge your opponents blows for the rest of the round.

Don't forget all the other freebies the Spider King gets too -- Track, Endurance, Animal Companion, Spells (with redfined spell list), Evasion, Favored Enemy, Camouflage, and Spider Climb.

All is not lost though - you still get Arachnid Strike to deal Constitution Damage. Yes, he must be in Arachnid Style to do this, but it "ignores the normal -2 penalty to attack and damage rolls that the Arachnid Style normally incurs." And at 20th level he gets a stackable attack bonus to Arachnid Strike able to potentially deal more constitution damage.

Sure, I can see things being increased a little more, but a 20-25% chance to avoid any successful attack seems pretty powerful already. The -2 to attack and damage rolls may sound steep, but the Ranger already get's the Fighter's BAB, so it's a small trade off I think.

The only regret I have is not working in some sort of Paralyzing strike and Web. But I felt that may be a little too unbalancing. I did compromise though -- these are part of the Spider King spell list.

Tough Call. I think I boosted the Ranger Class quite a bit. Even if you don't use your Arachnid Style, you still get a nice 20% Sixth Sense ability.

Oh, and the cover does not show him using two weapon fighting. He is simply using a two-handed weapon.

Hooah!

 

[Steverooo]

The Spider-King is not really meant to make the Ranger into an uber-combatant. Rather, it is meant to make him more like a Spider-man class -- dodge + attack.

The -2 damage makes it a worse attack form than TWF, which is already bad enough, is my point. Uber-combatant has nothing to do with it. The style is sub-optimal, like TWF, only worse.

Sixth Sense is a 10% chance to avoid a successful attack. And this is always active. First the opponent has to get by your AC, then even if he hits you get an extra 10% chance to avoid it. That's a just a flat out DC 19 for every single attack (ranged and melee), no limits.

You're right, no arguements there (and I was wrong, it is all attacks, not just one hit/round), BUT what I think you've failed to see is this: while you are dodging 10% of his blows, 25% of yours (assuming a 1D8 weapon) are causing NO DAMAGE, due to the -2 damage! 1D8-2 = 0 25% of the time! 10% dodge vs. 25% of yours hits doing no damage equals you lose! Or, you could say STR Bonus cancels that out, but then he gets his while you lose yours (and spiders are extremely strong, for their size).

Arachnid Style Combat may reduce attack and damage rolls by -2, but you get +1 dodge bonus to AC, and an extra 5% to your Sixth Sense (effectively a flat out DC 18), making you even harder to hit.

And is still a worse combat style than TWF, IMO. You gain 15% dodge in return for no damage 25% of the time (less damage ALL the time). Sound like a deal?

By 7th level, you have a 20% Sixth Sense chance, +5% when using Arachnid Style. That's a flat out DC 16 to avoid every successful attack. That's assuming the opponent gets past your AC, which has a +2 dodge bonus with Arachnid Style.

Light armor (+4, max.), +2 Arachnid, plus DEX, or about 18 at 7th level? Not that hard to hit. Maybe a bit harder, with magical armor and (perhaps) using a shield. Yes, the avoiding damage is nice, but does it make up for the 1D8-2 damage? At this level?

Don't forget the Arachnid Style Mastery at 11th level, allowing 1 free AOO whenever you successfully pull off a Sixth Sense evade.

Nope, once/round!

As you can see, the Arachnid Style is not really meant to be "deadly" per say. Rather, it is meant to make the Ranger more nimble to peck away at your opponent. You get an initiative boost to get first attacks in or cast spells, then can sit back and dodge your opponents blows for the rest of the round.

I remain unconvinced... I am going to have to stat up a Drow Spider King and an Elven Ranger and try them out, just to see how much the -2 damage hurts, and the dodging helps.

Don't forget all the other freebies the Spider King gets too -- Track, Endurance, Animal Companion, Spells (with redfined spell list), Evasion, Favored Enemy, Camouflage, and Spider Climb.

None of which helps him overcome the -2 damage in combat, of course.

Sure, I can see things being increased a little more, but a 20-25% chance to avoid any successful attack seems pretty powerful already. The -2 to attack and damage rolls may sound steep, but the Ranger already get's the Fighter's BAB, so it's a small trade off I think.

It's not the BAB I'm protesting... The -2 to hit hurts, some, but that along with the -2 damage strikes me as too much.

Oh, and the cover does not show him using two weapon fighting. He is simply using a two-handed weapon.

I'll go look at the bigger cover at the ENWGS, again, but I could have sworn he had sword & dagger... Regardless, the one inside (page 2?) has a sword & spiked small shield. So I take it that the answer is "No, he doesn't fight with TWF, nor all four limbs", eh?

 

[TheLe]

Touche'!

LOL. Fair enough. Give it a test spin and let me know how it turns out.

It is easy enough for a GM/Player to rule that there is no penalty when in Arachnid Style- a bad copout answer from me, but that's all I got!

No extra limbs for the Spider-King unfortunately. However, I am cosidering giving a sharp tail for special attacks for Neo Rangers: The Scorpion Queen. Not sure yet...

~Le

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I like the 2d8 hit points at first level, the magic user and druid spells, the bonus against giant class creatures, his animal followers, and the fact that he's the only class who can track.

 

[woodelf]

What i dislike can be summed up as: too druidic.

If i want someone who is a warrior and survivalist, at home in the wilderness and a bunny-hugger, i can play a druid/ranger. If i don't want the bunny-hugger aspect, the ranger should be the class to do it, but currently isn't.

So, ditch the animal companion and other friends-with-animals abilities; maybe switch the spells--definitely make them arcane casters, and probably adjust the spelllist. Maybe just ditch spellcasting. Keep the elements that make them good fighters, the tracking, the favored enemy, and enough skill points to be good at wilderness and stealth, and so on.

IOW, basically the AD&D1 ranger, Strider, or the old athas.org ranger (which has animal companions as an option, but not automatic).

 

[shadow]

Although I like the 3.5e ranger better than the 3e ranger, I still think that the class has a lot of problems as written. The main problem IMHO is that the class is too focused on combat and killing things rather than woodscraft and wilderness lore. I never understood the combat styles. Shouldn't combat styles belong to the fighters? Also favored enemies seems too narrow; the ability only kicks in when the DM decides to throw your favored enemies in an adventure.
The ranger needs more unique abilities to distinguish itself from the more combat oriented fighter and barbarian classes. One problem is that making tracking a feat that any character can acquire takes away from the ranger's niche. The ranger needs some type of tracking related abilities like "trailblazing" (from the scout class in the Star Wars rpg).