D&D (2024) Ranger playtest discussion


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Mephista

Adventurer
I see your point. The extreme scenario of a purely martial "caster", with "exploits" capable of mimicking spellcasting up to ninth level with none of the drawbacks your regular wizard get (antimagic, concentration, limited spell slots) would be overpowered. And how do you even represent a martial Meteor Swarm, short of giving the character an F-35 aircraft?
Turn the rogue into the F-35 aircraft. Not a joke. Maybe a bit exaggerated, but...

I've been toying with ways of making caltrops, ball bearings, alchemist fire, vials of acid, poisons, all the different rogue toys all relevant at increasing levels. If it works out, then just give the rogue some flying shoes or a magic carpet, send them over with a bag of holding carrying all the alchemist fires, and dump them over an army could be a very good equivalent?

The subclass is still in the works, but is it really that different from the Thief getting a scroll with the Meteor Swarm spell and casting it with UMD?
 

Olrox17

Hero
Turn the rogue into the F-35 aircraft. Not a joke. Maybe a bit exaggerated, but...

I've been toying with ways of making caltrops, ball bearings, alchemist fire, vials of acid, poisons, all the different rogue toys all relevant at increasing levels. If it works out, then just give the rogue some flying shoes or a magic carpet, send them over with a bag of holding carrying all the alchemist fires, and dump them over an army could be a very good equivalent?

The subclass is still in the works, but is it really that different from the Thief getting a scroll with the Meteor Swarm spell and casting it with UMD?
The main difference between this tactic and a genuine meteor swarm would probably be the 1 mile range and the pretty dang huge AoE. Still, pretty interesting. Literal carpet bombing.
 

Moorcrys

Explorer
Well this thread went sideways.

As usual.

I like this iteration of the ranger. I would like to see the Hunter have some more interesting abilities, and I would also love it if Hunter's Mark had more free castings (if it's going to be the foundation of a number of Ranger abilities).

I don't know how things like Conjure Barrage or Hunter's Mark may or may not change which makes it difficult to speculate on whether the whole package works, but overall it feels to me like a fun class to play. Certainly an improvement over the 2014 version.
 

Surely, a middle ground can be found somewhere.
The key issue is abilities which require checks and tend to have very limited impacts, vs. spells which don't require checks, and tend to have extremely broad impacts.

This is a peculiarity of D&D's early design and Vancian heritage (if Vance hadn't been such an influence, D&D would likely have a much smaller difference between spellcasters and non-spellcasters, and a much better magic system). In Vance, you have these bizarre mental construct spells which you sort of hold and then nearly-instantly unleash. It's almost more sci-fi than magical, like it feels more Star Trek than Lord of the Rings.

Unfortunately D&D inherited that. In virtually all other fantasy fiction involving spells, two things are true:

1) Spells can fail and you can mess them up. This is sorta-true in actual Vancian magic but D&D didn't incorporate that.

2) Spells that do a lot take a very long time to cast and often require ritual magic with multiple casters.

D&D did introduce saving throws, which don't seem to mean the caster messed up, just that the target somehow resisted or dodged them (which happens a bit in Vance's work).

So the core thing that's messed-up here is that casters can't fail outside of combat, essentially.

That combines with spells having very major effects and being near-instant, to create a situation where, outside of combat, spells are needlessly more effective than non-spell-based abilities. It doesn't really make sense, fictionally. It should absolutely be possible to mess up casting or setting up a spell. In virtually all fantasy fiction involving spells (again, including Vance), that is a thing. But in D&D it's excluded as a possibility. Unless the target has a saving throw, your spell will never fail, never go wrong.

One way to balance things would be to give non-casting PCs more stuff that didn't fail, that didn't require a roll, that just required time/effort. 3E kind of did this a bit thanks to take 10 and take 20, but 5E abandoning them means those aren't an option. Tasha's/1D&D sticks a toe in the water by giving stuff like Climb Speeds, which are like, from a realism perspective, utterly wild (really, I can climb a 60ft cliff freehand in 6 seconds? Apparently!), but it's only a toe.

I don't think anyone's asking for martial fireballs and martial teleports.
I mean, combat isn't the major issue. It is an issue, but it's not the major one. 5E is kind of willing to give martials some fairly wild abilities in combat, and there's not a major balance issue there. It would be nice to see a bit more, but the Ranger problem is weird-ass backsliding. There's no reason Hunter's Mark and Conjure Barrage should be spells, as it were. Those could perfectly well be abilities (indeed, pretty sure the Conjure Barrage-equivalent used to be an ability and Hunter's Mark makes no more/less sense as Martial than literally dozens of Martial bonus-damage abilities), but for whatever bonkers reasons, WotC decided to go the opposite way to for example, giving Rangers a Climb Speed, and made them into actual spells.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
It is the considerate way to DM. Not doing this is being anti-player.

Yes, you are. "The world doesn't care about the people who decide to save it. That player that made a Ranger whose favored terrain is Tundra needs to suck it up! We're playing an Underdark campaign!" That is 100% a "screw the players" mentality. And that's bad.

It's the DMs job to engage the players. And the players won't be engaged if they feel like the DM is against them. And saying "screw them, they world doesn't care about them" is the absolute worst way to make the players feel like you're with them. I'm not saying that the DM can't challenge their players or that every situation in the campaign has to be designed to support their choices, but I'm saying that parts of the campaign should be designed with the players' character choices in mind. If the Ranger chooses Undead as their Favored Enemies, it would be really awesome of the DM to include undead fairly frequently in the campaign. If the campaign takes place underwater, it would be really great for the DM to let all of the members of the party participate in the adventure.

The DMs job is to make the game possible, and the purpose of the game is to have fun. And it's really hard for the players to have fun if they feel like you don't care about the things they put into their characters.
If the players make their characters knowing what kinds of things are likely to show up, this problem is avoided. You're assuming they show up with fully-realized PCs before any discussion of the campaign is had; I mentioned session 0 (the part of my post you didn't address) for a reason. Maybe don't choose undead as your Favored Enemy if the DM wants to run an adventure in the Feywild?
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
And you can tell the Ranger what the adventure is like beforehand. If the adventure is Icewind Dale, a good DM would tell them that the adventure takes place in the Arctic, with some Mountains and Forests around it. If the adventure is Tomb of Annilation, the DM should tell them that it's a Rain Forest full of undead and beasts. A bad DM would let them choose Desert and have them suffer the whole campaign because they chose to be a jerk and not communicate that with them.
Who's doing that? Session 0!
 

Zubatcarteira

Now you're infected by the Musical Doodle
I like the Favored Terrain giving bonuses idea. You could have a Ranger that gets Expertise in Survival by default, then each terrain gives one more, along with a bonus to the Ranger themselves, and something else to help lead the party, maybe it can give more things at higher levels as well.

Like, Mountain, expertise in Athletics, you get a climb speed and advantage on checks to climb, and your allies that follow you have the same benefit. It could give things like acclimating you to high altitudes like the Goliaths, or reducing fall damage at higher levels.

Or Underdark, expertise in Stealth, you get darkvision and can share it with allies like a Twilight Cleric, etc.
 


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