Ranger powers with "heavy thrown" weapon

[Mesh Hong]

I am currently thinking about a two weapon Ranger who uses Heavy Thrown weapons.

The rules clearly state that Heavy Thrown weapons use STR for attack and bonus damage for Basic Attacks. However it doesn't mention how this affects powers like 'twin strike', in melee it is obviously STR vs. AC; but for ranged it says DEX vs. AC.

How does this work with Heavy Thrown weapons? Does it either:

1: Still run off DEX because that is in the power description.
- I can see the reasoning that the power states clearly what stat the attack uses, it is therefore fixed and has been designed that way for a reason.

or

2: Can it run off STR because you are using a Heavy Thrown projectile?
- I can see the reasoning that heavy thrown characteristic replaces DEX with STR because of the nature of the weapon, anytime the term DEX is used in a power if you are using the weapon at range you can substitute STR. Coupled with this is the fact that heavy thrown weapons have a much shorter range than bows or crossbows.

I am looking for opinions as to which way people have either ruled this in their own games, or which way people feel is more balanced or at least interpreting the rules in the spirit of the game.

 

[Danceofmasks]

1 is how the rules as written are.

Some players would like 2 to work, however .. that could just be asking for Str/Con heavy armour rangers to be awesome at range as well as melee.

 

[Klaus]

Danceofmasks has it right. Regardless of the weapon, the power uses the ability described. Which only serves to highlight a lack of Str-based ranged attacks for Fighters and their ilk, who must then default to Basic Ranged Attacks when using heavy thrown weapons. Only the Warlord gets a modicum of heavy thrown powers, in Martial Power.

 

[Mesh Hong]

1 is how the rules as written are.

Some players would like 2 to work, however .. that could just be asking for Str/Con heavy armour rangers to be awesome at range as well as melee.

yes that is a good point. Is it your thinking then that say range 10/20 with a javelin using STR doing 1d6 damage doesn't balance against range 20/40 with a long bow using DEX doing 1d10 damage?

In the above case the longbow does more damage at a greater range and is slightly easier to use as you can draw arrows as a free action where you would need to be wielding two javelins to have the two seperate attacks (as stated in the PHB).

I think the heavy armour arguement might be a little weak as a bow ranger can wear any armour they buy the feats for, even though as you say a STR/CON build would make it a lot easier.

 

[Mesh Hong]

Danceofmasks has it right. Regardless of the weapon, the power uses the ability described. Which only serves to highlight a lack of Str-based ranged attacks for Fighters and their ilk, who must then default to Basic Ranged Attacks when using heavy thrown weapons. Only the Warlord gets a modicum of heavy thrown powers, in Martial Power.

Thanks for your opinion, I think this is probably the correct interpretation of the rules and would probably be for the best - balance wise. I think it would probably open a can of worms if you started meddling with mechanics such as this.

I would still like to hear other peoples opinions though, if anyone else has any thoughts?

 

[Danceofmasks]

I think the heavy armour arguement might be a little weak as a bow ranger can wear any armour they buy the feats for, even though as you say a STR/CON build would make it a lot easier.

The point is, heavy armor rangers tend to have extremely high strengths .. starting 18+ if not 20 .. and rip stuff to shreds in melee.
The issue isn't that they can compete with bow-rangers at range, rather that they can perform well at range as well as being .. err ..
Imagine twin strike while wielding 2 craghammers and having the hammer rhythm feat ... *shudder*

Giving them ranged options as well would just be nasty.
I mean, they still have their heavy thrown ranged basic attack. It's not as good as twin strike ('cos much higher odds to land quarry damage with), but competetive in damage output when the damage dice are small ('cos the RBA adds str, and twin strike doesn't).

Archery rangers don't need heavy armour. Dex + Hide is plenty, in fact better than heavy armour.

edit: misspelled a word

 

[Mesh Hong]

The point is, heavy armor rangers tend to have extremely high strengths .. starting 18+ if not 20 .. and rip stuff to shreds in melee.
The issue isn't that they can compete with bow-rangers at range, rather that they can perform well at range as well as being .. err ..
Imagine twin strike while wielding 2 craghammers and having the hammer rhythm feat ... *shudder*

Giving them ranged options as well would just be nasty.
I mean, they still have their heavy thrown ranged basic attack. It's not as good as twin strike ('cos much higher odds to land quarry damage with), but competetive in damage output when the damage dice are small ('cos the RBA adds str, and twin strike doesn't).

Archery rangers don't need heavy armour. Dex + Hide is plenty, in fact better than heavy armour.

Yes, I see, thats the type of rounded response I was after. Thanks.

The build I was picturing myself was a half orc wielding tratnyrs; I think at level 10 it would be 20 STR and 18 DEX, so I would only be very slightly less effective at range using DEX anyway. I haddn't actually considered wearing anything other than hide armour, but that is probably because I am in DM thinking mode and not Player mode.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, most people just don't think of rangers as "guys with 10 dex"
I played a silly human ranger (level 5) for a couple of sessions, 21 str/ 8 dex/ 14 con/ 13 wis ... with every intention of getting plate proficiency at level 8.
Was also fully intending to use two waraxes and take the deadly axe feat.

Not quite as disgusting as ... say ... a warforged with hammers, but it was up there.

In that instance, str mod and dex mod was a gap of 6 points ... so I just hurled a +1 handaxe when I needed to.
Heck, a dynamic +2 waraxe was on my list .. just so I could morph it into a handaxe if I ever needed to throw something ... or even a javelin for extra range.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

On the flip side the DEX bow ranger can now take melee training and has the mirror choice. He can now do an MBA with a good to-hit. It isn't Twin Strike, but at least he's not totally hapless with a sword in hand.

I've wondered what the implication would be of a "Ranged Weapon Training" feat to allow STR to substitute for DEX with thrown weapons, or vice versa for heavy thrown. Probably would be unbalancing, but it would allow a ranger to do both ranged and melee combat pretty well, at the cost of taking up some feat slots. Essentially that would mean your STR based primarily melee ranger could do pretty well with ranged attacks when necessary, but it would cost him the armor proficiencies he really needs to be an optimum melee specialist. Still, at least it is a trade off, and it hardly impacts dex rangers since they already have Melee Training as an option and don't need the AC boost.

 

[Danceofmasks]

In the level 25 game I'm playing in, my buddy uses an archer.
He just shoots in melee, 'cos those OAs don't scare him ... especially since he usually does that with flanking, prime shot, on a target the fighter has marked.
He even moves into a flank on purpose 'cos (before the existence of weapon expertise, anyway) at our level it was getting difficult to land hits.