Ranger/Thief backstab question
Just my 2 cents:
Let the rogue have his sneak attack, every class has it's way of dealing large amounts of damage, so why not the rogue?
A 10th lvl Half/Orc Fighter (Str20) could make a Whirlwindattack with an attack+16 and will do 2d6+10 against every Enemy he threatens (up to 8 humansized enemys, that could be calculated as 16d6+80 in a single round. Up to 176points of damage and no magic was used at all).
A 10th lvl Mage who toasts the same fighter will burn him and all those surrounding him with a fireball doing 10d6 (at least 5d6 if you consider all saves as "made") to 9 or more people(could be considered as at least 45d6 (up to 180 points of damage (more if you don't conider the Save as made)).
A 10th lvl rogue (dex20) with Weapon finesse/TWF/ambidextery,flanking an enemy will do two attacks+10, and one attack+5 with Damage 6d6 each (IF all attacks hit (which is not that likely with the later+5) this will be 18d6 (up to 108 points of Damage)).
Considering the enemys our DM throws at us, the fighter will do this stunt around 10 times, the Mage as long as he has fireballs avaible (thereafter he'll use nastier spells) and the rogue could do this around 4 times before he is so low on hit points that he must go to a healer.
Besides this, it always depends on the style of your campaing, how powerful the rogues sneak attack is: The DM of the campaign I'm currently gaming in LOVES to throw golems and undead at us. In fact my character is Level 8 by now and he has done around 5 sneak attacks in his whole live...
Let the rogue have his sneak attack, every class has it's way of dealing large amounts of damage, so why not the rogue?
A 10th lvl Half/Orc Fighter (Str20) could make a Whirlwindattack with an attack+16 and will do 2d6+10 against every Enemy he threatens (up to 8 humansized enemys, that could be calculated as 16d6+80 in a single round. Up to 176points of damage and no magic was used at all).
A 10th lvl Mage who toasts the same fighter will burn him and all those surrounding him with a fireball doing 10d6 (at least 5d6 if you consider all saves as "made") to 9 or more people(could be considered as at least 45d6 (up to 180 points of damage (more if you don't conider the Save as made)).
A 10th lvl rogue (dex20) with Weapon finesse/TWF/ambidextery,flanking an enemy will do two attacks+10, and one attack+5 with Damage 6d6 each (IF all attacks hit (which is not that likely with the later+5) this will be 18d6 (up to 108 points of Damage)).
Considering the enemys our DM throws at us, the fighter will do this stunt around 10 times, the Mage as long as he has fireballs avaible (thereafter he'll use nastier spells) and the rogue could do this around 4 times before he is so low on hit points that he must go to a healer.
Besides this, it always depends on the style of your campaing, how powerful the rogues sneak attack is: The DM of the campaign I'm currently gaming in LOVES to throw golems and undead at us. In fact my character is Level 8 by now and he has done around 5 sneak attacks in his whole live...
ragnarok said:
Here is a sign of a bigger problem but lets just dwell on this for a moment. Could it be conceived that the sneak attack is so powerful that DM’s purposefully avoid those encounters? According to the “remedies” that have been posted here that is exactly what they do. And to think that in 8 levels of acquiring experience this guy’s character has only done 5 sneak attacks is just sad. Everyone who has ever played a “thief/rogue” knows there is such a cool feeling when you get to unleash your furry on an opponent’s backside.
With that said how many more opportunities do you think a Rogue character would have if the attacks where not so devastating? I have played 1E, 2E and 3E and my “back stabs” were just as much of a rush in 1E and 2E as the “sneak attack “ is in 3E. The problem is that in 3E I can see them happening less and less frequently as DM’s use the remedies mentioned above.
It is to bad that the game is going through “Damage Inflation”. It seems that in this case more is less.
SpikeyFreak
First Post
Rogues need a way to be effective in combat. All PC classes have ways of dealing a lot of damage. The Rogues puts him in harms way, and unlike the cleric or fighter, he doesn't have the combat equipment or HP to stick around in melee for very long.
If you really feel like the rogue is too good in melee, you should run a few encounters as a rogue with a good DM and a party of 4 characters. In my experience, rogues who are quick to hop into combat either go down a lot or have learned to get out of combat just as quickly.
It isn't a bad DM that doesn't allow a rogue to sneak attack every combat. It's a bad DM that allows the rogue to sneak attack every combat.
Do you let wizards cast fireball every combat. Do you let barbarians rage and greatcleave every combat? Do you let clerics turn undead every combat? It's pretty much the same thing, at least as I see it.
And Fisk, you shouldn't assume that quoting the rules is easy. Sometimes they are in hard to find places and sometimes you don't have access to the source from which they come.
For instance, the rule that two-weapon fighting only applies to melee is in a strange place. So is the rule about weapon finesse + unarmed attacks.
And other times the rules as written contradict one another, or aren't clear. That's when this place shines. It is a rules forum though, and regurgitating rules happens a lot.
--Cartoon-Lover Spikey
If you really feel like the rogue is too good in melee, you should run a few encounters as a rogue with a good DM and a party of 4 characters. In my experience, rogues who are quick to hop into combat either go down a lot or have learned to get out of combat just as quickly.
It isn't a bad DM that doesn't allow a rogue to sneak attack every combat. It's a bad DM that allows the rogue to sneak attack every combat.
Do you let wizards cast fireball every combat. Do you let barbarians rage and greatcleave every combat? Do you let clerics turn undead every combat? It's pretty much the same thing, at least as I see it.
And Fisk, you shouldn't assume that quoting the rules is easy. Sometimes they are in hard to find places and sometimes you don't have access to the source from which they come.
For instance, the rule that two-weapon fighting only applies to melee is in a strange place. So is the rule about weapon finesse + unarmed attacks.
And other times the rules as written contradict one another, or aren't clear. That's when this place shines. It is a rules forum though, and regurgitating rules happens a lot.
--Cartoon-Lover Spikey
Fisk said:
Besides I feel my character is pretty ueeless in this (combat heavy) campaing (with uncrit-able foes), it's really just my Dm's style of play. If he's a Player he usally plays necromancers and/or golembuilders as well, so there's not a big diffrence if he's player or DM. Also this is our first 3e Campaing so he shouldn't dislike rogues(or any other Classes (besides Clerics with the death domain, because they make better Necromancers than wizards
))
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Vaxalon
First Post
::sigh::
What do you find in the same places as you find constructs and undead? Or rather, what SHOULD you find?
The thing about constructs and undead is that they can guard a room effectively without ever leaving it. They're GREAT at that.
That means that the dungeon designer can put in lots of nifty, fiendishly clever TRAPS. Yes, traps. And guess who gets to shine when the traps come out? Yes, your friendly neighborhood rogue, who has been hanging out in the back of the party because his big combat trick doesn't work.
A good DM will work a good number of traps into any dungeon that is heavy on constructs and undead, in order to be fair to the rogue. If he's not, then multiclass into fighter or something useful, because you're being marginalized.
What do you find in the same places as you find constructs and undead? Or rather, what SHOULD you find?
The thing about constructs and undead is that they can guard a room effectively without ever leaving it. They're GREAT at that.
That means that the dungeon designer can put in lots of nifty, fiendishly clever TRAPS. Yes, traps. And guess who gets to shine when the traps come out? Yes, your friendly neighborhood rogue, who has been hanging out in the back of the party because his big combat trick doesn't work.
A good DM will work a good number of traps into any dungeon that is heavy on constructs and undead, in order to be fair to the rogue. If he's not, then multiclass into fighter or something useful, because you're being marginalized.
graydoom
First Post
Yes, a bizarre characteristic. Perhaps these things are not truly trolls but some other type of magical beast? It would have to be one with fire absorption, of course. And DR 100/- too.Albereth said:The only thing I really hate about message board trolls is that flames don't hurt them, it just seems to regenerate them
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