Ranger: What needs fixing?
- Thread starter Jaligard
- Start date
Jack Daniel
Legend
It's really very simple. Rangers fight with two weapons because it's on their proficiency list, just like all fighters know how to use all martial weapons, and all monks know how to use kamas. It's called a class-based system.
The Drizzt theory is fun to speculate on, but the truth of the matter is none of the 2e game designers could have cared enough to move the drow ability to the ranger solely on account of Salvatore's popularity. For all we know, they could have done it because rangers in the original Ultima game carried two swords. All I know is that since 2e, rangers and sword-pairs have gone hand in hand and there's nothing wrong with it. I'd sooner ask for an explaination for why 2e clerics in a setting based on polytheistic myth carried on the pseudo-Christian crusader tradition of blunt weapons. The answer in both cases, really, is that you can do whatever you want in the context of your fantasy game, and in the context of Oerth/Faerun, rangers are trained to fight with two weapons.
As for this woodsman crap, let me think here: rangers get d10 hp and 4 sp.... rogues get d6 hp and 8 sp... the WoT woodsman is a class with d8 hp and 6 sp.... that looks an awful lot like an even-leveled ranger/rogue. I think if you want to play woodsmen, you shouldn't be playing single-classed rangers. Rangers are not just wilderness experts, they're warriors first. Rogues are the skill boys, remember? Now if you combine skill master + woodsy monster hunter = the result? A woodsman!
The Drizzt theory is fun to speculate on, but the truth of the matter is none of the 2e game designers could have cared enough to move the drow ability to the ranger solely on account of Salvatore's popularity. For all we know, they could have done it because rangers in the original Ultima game carried two swords. All I know is that since 2e, rangers and sword-pairs have gone hand in hand and there's nothing wrong with it. I'd sooner ask for an explaination for why 2e clerics in a setting based on polytheistic myth carried on the pseudo-Christian crusader tradition of blunt weapons. The answer in both cases, really, is that you can do whatever you want in the context of your fantasy game, and in the context of Oerth/Faerun, rangers are trained to fight with two weapons.
As for this woodsman crap, let me think here: rangers get d10 hp and 4 sp.... rogues get d6 hp and 8 sp... the WoT woodsman is a class with d8 hp and 6 sp.... that looks an awful lot like an even-leveled ranger/rogue. I think if you want to play woodsmen, you shouldn't be playing single-classed rangers. Rangers are not just wilderness experts, they're warriors first. Rogues are the skill boys, remember? Now if you combine skill master + woodsy monster hunter = the result? A woodsman!
GuardianLurker
Adventurer
You've hit most of the big flaws, as far as I'm concerned.
I'd also add the the "ranger" archetype has always (even from the 1e days) seemed a little weak to me, especially when compared to the paladin (and now the barbarian). Strengthening that archetype, whatever you decide it should be, will help the class no matter what you do.
If you haven't already, check out the Ranger Project (http://www.electricearth.net/ranger/) which has all _sorts_ of ideas about rangers.
I also have my own alt.ranger (http://patriot.net/~jmeehan/OLERRA/HouseRules/Ranger.html), which you might like.
I'd also add the the "ranger" archetype has always (even from the 1e days) seemed a little weak to me, especially when compared to the paladin (and now the barbarian). Strengthening that archetype, whatever you decide it should be, will help the class no matter what you do.
If you haven't already, check out the Ranger Project (http://www.electricearth.net/ranger/) which has all _sorts_ of ideas about rangers.
I also have my own alt.ranger (http://patriot.net/~jmeehan/OLERRA/HouseRules/Ranger.html), which you might like.
Squire James
Explorer
My thoughts in altering the Ranger class are as follows:
1. At 1st level, Rangers gain the Track feat (something I think most would agree IS applicable to all Rangers) and ONE chosen bonus feat from "the Ranger list". I'm not going to specify "the Ranger list" here, except to say that it should be a lot smaller than the Fighter list and it must not contain Weapon Specialization (I don't think Psychic Warriors should get it either, but that's another issue...).
2. At 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the Ranger may choose a new "favored enemy" at +1, or add +1 to an existing "favored enemy" up to a maximum of +5. This bonus is applied to attack rolls, save DC's, and skill checks applied in an adversarial manner against such creatures (essentially the skills mentioned in the PHB, though other situations may exist). The bonus does not apply to damage, which neatly sidesteps the "monsters immune to crits" issues. If the Ranger wants a damage bonus, he should be encouraged to choose the Power Attack feat (which may or may not be on "the Ranger list").
I particularly like the delay to level 2 here (whether you agree with applying it to save DC's and attack rolls or not), because it removes some of the "front loading" and gives the Ranger a chance to either make an enemy or see if the DM employs a certain type of monster at all. Also, the "+1 per 2 levels" approach means the Ranger's first decision doesn't necessarily hang a weight on the character if his first decision was a bad one.
3. At 3rd level, the Ranger gets to choose his second bonus feat from "the Ranger list". If a Ranger forgoes his spellcasting ability, he may select another bonus feat from "the Ranger list" every 3 levels thereafter. Otherwise, this second bonus feat is the last one he will get (unless he multi-classes, of course).
This, of course, is another "eliminate the front loaded" change. It is not particularly unbalancing to push it up to level 2 or even level 1, since yeah Monks and Barbarians are front-loaded too (I might add that ALL the good front-loaders have alignment requirements, the more the tougher!). This one "bunches up" the feats a bit, because a single-classed Ranger with no spell ability would always be picking 2 feats or none. I don't consider that a problem, but some DM's might.
All the other stuff (BAB, Hit Dice, saves, all the skill stuff) remains the same. Still a pretty simple class with sparse high-level abilities, but the "favored enemy" revision will put at least SOME carrot in front of the single-classed Ranger (and even add some utility for a Ranger/spellcaster multiclass, because +5 to save DC's vs. Dragons is good!).
1. At 1st level, Rangers gain the Track feat (something I think most would agree IS applicable to all Rangers) and ONE chosen bonus feat from "the Ranger list". I'm not going to specify "the Ranger list" here, except to say that it should be a lot smaller than the Fighter list and it must not contain Weapon Specialization (I don't think Psychic Warriors should get it either, but that's another issue...).
2. At 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the Ranger may choose a new "favored enemy" at +1, or add +1 to an existing "favored enemy" up to a maximum of +5. This bonus is applied to attack rolls, save DC's, and skill checks applied in an adversarial manner against such creatures (essentially the skills mentioned in the PHB, though other situations may exist). The bonus does not apply to damage, which neatly sidesteps the "monsters immune to crits" issues. If the Ranger wants a damage bonus, he should be encouraged to choose the Power Attack feat (which may or may not be on "the Ranger list").
I particularly like the delay to level 2 here (whether you agree with applying it to save DC's and attack rolls or not), because it removes some of the "front loading" and gives the Ranger a chance to either make an enemy or see if the DM employs a certain type of monster at all. Also, the "+1 per 2 levels" approach means the Ranger's first decision doesn't necessarily hang a weight on the character if his first decision was a bad one.
3. At 3rd level, the Ranger gets to choose his second bonus feat from "the Ranger list". If a Ranger forgoes his spellcasting ability, he may select another bonus feat from "the Ranger list" every 3 levels thereafter. Otherwise, this second bonus feat is the last one he will get (unless he multi-classes, of course).
This, of course, is another "eliminate the front loaded" change. It is not particularly unbalancing to push it up to level 2 or even level 1, since yeah Monks and Barbarians are front-loaded too (I might add that ALL the good front-loaders have alignment requirements, the more the tougher!). This one "bunches up" the feats a bit, because a single-classed Ranger with no spell ability would always be picking 2 feats or none. I don't consider that a problem, but some DM's might.
All the other stuff (BAB, Hit Dice, saves, all the skill stuff) remains the same. Still a pretty simple class with sparse high-level abilities, but the "favored enemy" revision will put at least SOME carrot in front of the single-classed Ranger (and even add some utility for a Ranger/spellcaster multiclass, because +5 to save DC's vs. Dragons is good!).
Jaligard
First Post
Curranos said:
Squire James said:
I like the idea here, but one seems too generous and one seems too stingy. The first system gives a 20th level Ranger +20 in Favoured Enemy bonuses, while the second system gives him +10 (the second system does give a more generous type of bonus, though). I like the simplicity, though. Add +1 to any enemy when you get the bonus (or take a new one at +1).
What should the bonus apply to? As it stands now, it applies to Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, Wilderness Lore checks, and damage rolls when the creature is not immune to critical damage.
(My working model essentially keeps the Favored Enemy bonus as presented in the PHB except that the damage bonus is an unnamed bonus that applies to every creature.)
Again, thanks for all the replies!
Striderman
First Post
Another interesting idea for potential uses of the favored enemy bonus is as a dodge bonus to AC when fighting that particular type of creature, not unlike the Dwarf and Gnome dodge bonuses against giants. Perhaps you can tie this to wearing only light or no armor. It makes just as much sense to me as the other uses of favored enemy, and I don't think it is much of a game breaker, either, although there is potential for that, as I haven't really playtested this idea.
Andor
First Post
Masters of the wild has a bunch of stuff for rangers, including an 'urban ranger' option, feats dealing with favored enemies, and an optional rules switching the favored enemy damage bonus to a dodge bonus for those enemies immune to criticals.
Plus a few cool prestige classes that make it worth staying in ranger at least long enough to get some spells.
-Andor
Plus a few cool prestige classes that make it worth staying in ranger at least long enough to get some spells.
-Andor
Two things I would definitely not include:
Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain. The bonuses to these are often negligible, even if you beef them up. They are a pain to keep track of. It's much like Dodge: I keep forgetting that lousy +1 AC vs one guy. As Monte Cook stated, these bonuses kick in when the DM wants them to. To a player, that means the abilities will be useless most of the time. I would drop the abilities altogether.
If you really like it, make Favored Enemy a feat available for all, which is what it should always have been. Why must my ranger hate a certain number of races? Can't he just get along?
TWF is no more than a proficiency. Notice it is not noted as a class ability (as it was in 2E). It is there to make converting 2E rangers better. It makes as much sense as Medium Armor Proficiency. TWF should not be viewed as a class ability (though it tends to be because of the notorious lack of ranger class abilities).
Don't change skill points. Yes, they are few, but ask anyone and they will tell you they are strapped for skill points. Even a rogue with a good int will have less than he wants. That is the nature of D&D. If you really feel rangers need the boost (not saying they don't) try giving them some bonus skill points in less-selected skills, like Climb, Jump, Swim. Now you're probably thinking: "that's what favored terrain is for!" Let me tell you: it's not the same. Most times I make these checks will not be in my favored terrain (unless your entire campaign revolves around it) making the class ability practically non-existant.
Try to think of some high level abilities. Feats are an option (from a limited list, of course) but it takes away from the fighter a bit. I must admit I have failed to come up with these high level abilities myself, but I'm not even a GM, let alone a game designer. I have come up with some ideas more oriented for a skirmisher-type, but they seem suitable for a PrC, not a core class. I would try to keep it general.
Uncanny Dodge is essential for the ranger due to his light armor tendency (not necessarilly related to TWF: how many full-plated rangers have you played?). It makes more sense for the ranger than the barbarian, and I still say the ranger took a bullet here.
Some good low-level abilities would be stuff like Fast Heal (ranger heals twice as fast, recovering hps from rest at double rate. Same for temporary ability score damage?), better tracking (track at full speed, add half ranks in Wil. Lore to his DC), Trailblazing (very useful at low levels, i.e. before Teleport) to name a few.
Oh, and on the subject of rangers being front-loaded, I totally agree with bardolph: check out other classes before you point fingers at the ranger.
Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain. The bonuses to these are often negligible, even if you beef them up. They are a pain to keep track of. It's much like Dodge: I keep forgetting that lousy +1 AC vs one guy. As Monte Cook stated, these bonuses kick in when the DM wants them to. To a player, that means the abilities will be useless most of the time. I would drop the abilities altogether.
If you really like it, make Favored Enemy a feat available for all, which is what it should always have been. Why must my ranger hate a certain number of races? Can't he just get along?
TWF is no more than a proficiency. Notice it is not noted as a class ability (as it was in 2E). It is there to make converting 2E rangers better. It makes as much sense as Medium Armor Proficiency. TWF should not be viewed as a class ability (though it tends to be because of the notorious lack of ranger class abilities).
Don't change skill points. Yes, they are few, but ask anyone and they will tell you they are strapped for skill points. Even a rogue with a good int will have less than he wants. That is the nature of D&D. If you really feel rangers need the boost (not saying they don't) try giving them some bonus skill points in less-selected skills, like Climb, Jump, Swim. Now you're probably thinking: "that's what favored terrain is for!" Let me tell you: it's not the same. Most times I make these checks will not be in my favored terrain (unless your entire campaign revolves around it) making the class ability practically non-existant.
Try to think of some high level abilities. Feats are an option (from a limited list, of course) but it takes away from the fighter a bit. I must admit I have failed to come up with these high level abilities myself, but I'm not even a GM, let alone a game designer. I have come up with some ideas more oriented for a skirmisher-type, but they seem suitable for a PrC, not a core class. I would try to keep it general.
Uncanny Dodge is essential for the ranger due to his light armor tendency (not necessarilly related to TWF: how many full-plated rangers have you played?). It makes more sense for the ranger than the barbarian, and I still say the ranger took a bullet here.
Some good low-level abilities would be stuff like Fast Heal (ranger heals twice as fast, recovering hps from rest at double rate. Same for temporary ability score damage?), better tracking (track at full speed, add half ranks in Wil. Lore to his DC), Trailblazing (very useful at low levels, i.e. before Teleport) to name a few.
Oh, and on the subject of rangers being front-loaded, I totally agree with bardolph: check out other classes before you point fingers at the ranger.
I'm thinking:
1) Ranger automaticaly gains the Ambidexterity feat whenever they have a 15 or higher Dexterity.
2) At 1st level the Ranger get's Track.
3) At 2nd level the Ranger picks up one bonus feat.
4) A ranger does +1d6 damage when attacking their favored enemy. This bonus never increases, they just apply it to more and more favored enemies as they gain levels. It doesn't apply to crit immune creatures, yadda yadda yadda. The favored enemy bonus on skill checks remains the same.
5) Allow the Ranger specific spells from Magic of Faerun. Hopefully Masters of the Wild (aka "Sticks and Stones") will provide some more Ranger specific spells.
1) Ranger automaticaly gains the Ambidexterity feat whenever they have a 15 or higher Dexterity.
2) At 1st level the Ranger get's Track.
3) At 2nd level the Ranger picks up one bonus feat.
4) A ranger does +1d6 damage when attacking their favored enemy. This bonus never increases, they just apply it to more and more favored enemies as they gain levels. It doesn't apply to crit immune creatures, yadda yadda yadda. The favored enemy bonus on skill checks remains the same.
5) Allow the Ranger specific spells from Magic of Faerun. Hopefully Masters of the Wild (aka "Sticks and Stones") will provide some more Ranger specific spells.
Last edited:
Dr. Zoom
First Post
I am looking forward to MotW. I hope there are some great options for rangers. Here is the latest alt.ranger I am using. It eliminates TWF, increases spell capability, grants special abilities at later levels (similar to the rogue), and allows for Monte's new spells and feats. I left Favored Enemy as is (except for choosing your own race) because I do not really like any of the alternates well enough to change it. I do like Caliban's suggestion of +1d6 per FE, but should I then allow Monte's FE Strike? Some of my special abilities help with FE, at any rate.
Here is my alt.ranger progression:
01) 1st Favored Enemy, Track, Regular Feat
02) Bonus Feat
03) Regular Feat
04) 1st Level Spells (Wis 12+), Animal Companions (from spell)
05) 2nd Favored Enemy
06) Regular Feat
07) Special Ability, 2nd Level Spells (Wis 14+)
08)
09) Regular Feat
10) 3rd Favored Enemy, Special Ability, 3rd Level Spells (Wis 16+)
11)
12) Regular Feat
13) Special Ability, 4th Level Spells (Wis 18+)
14)
15) 4th Favored Enemy, Regular Feat
16) Special Ability
17)
18) Regular Feat
19) Special Ability
20) 5th Favored Enemy
Notes: Special abilities could start at 10th level instead of 7th level. Anyone have a strong opinion one way or the other?
Spells start with "0" so the Wisdom requirement is for bonus spells. Otherwise, the ranger gains access at the next level. Each spell level progresses as follows: 0-1-2-2-3-3-3-4. Four spells per spell level is the max for the ranger, unless he has bonus spells. At 20th level, rangers have 4 spells per spell level. In case anyone is curious, I also use this progression for the Paladin.
Game Rule Information
Same as PHB: Abilities, Alignment, Hit Die, BAB, Saving Throws, Class Skills, Spells (except as noted below), Track, Table 3-14: Ranger Favored Enemies.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Same as the PHB, except the ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting in light or no armor “virtual feats” are dropped. They will be replaced by one bonus feat at second level, an expanded spell list, and a better spell progression.
Favored Enemy: Same as the PHB, except rangers may choose their own race as a favored enemy without being evil.
Bonus Feat: At 2nd level rangers gain a bonus feat.
New Feats: Rangers may choose Favored Enemy Strike and Favored Enemy Critical Strike found in Monte Cook’s “The Ranger Revisited.”
Special Ability: Starting at 7th level and every three levels thereafter rangers gain a special ability from the following list:
Smite Favored Enemy – Drawing upon the power of nature, the ranger may smite any favored enemy once per day. The smite must be declared before the attack roll is made, and it is used up for that day regardless of success or failure. Smite is a melee attack that grants a +4 to the attack roll and adds the ranger’s class level to the damage roll.
Improved Favored Enemy – Add a +1 bonus to all favored enemies.
Uncanny Dodge (dex bonus to AC) – As the barbarian ability in the PHB.
Uncanny Dodge (cannot be flanked) – As the barbarian ability in the PHB.
Skill Boost – The ranger gains a feat that helps his skills. He must choose from the following list: Alertness, Athletic, Endurance, Forester, Greater Skill Focus, Skill Focus, Stealthy, and Survivor. (Note: the Skill Focus feat increases a skill by +3, not +2. Likewise Greater Skill Focus gives a non-stackable +5 bonus. This is an official house rule.)
Skill Mastery – As the rogue ability in the PHB.
Spell List:
1 – Alarm, Animal Friendship, Camouflage*, Delay Poison, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect Snares and Pits, Entangle, Exacting Shot*, Expeditious Retreat*, Hunter’s Mercy*, Low Light Vision*, Magic Fang, Pass Without Trace, Read Magic, Resist Elements, Speak with Animals, Summon Nature’s Ally I, Surefoot*
2 – Animal Messenger, Barkskin*, Blight Enemies*, Briar Web*, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Hold Animal, One with the Land*, Protection from Elements, Sleep, Snare, Speak with Plants, Summon Nature’s Ally II
3 – Blade Thirst*, Control Plants, Cure Moderate Wounds, Diminish Plants, Easy Climb*, Greater Magic Fang, Heal Animal Companion*, Neutralize Poison, Plant Growth, Remove Disease, Summon Nature’s Ally III, Tree Shape, Water Walk, Wild Stealth*
4 – Commune with Nature*, Cure Serious Wounds, Foebane*, Freedom of Movement, Nondetection, Polymorph Self, Summon Nature’s Ally IV, Tree Stride, Wall of Thorns*, Windwall, Unite Allies*
*New Ranger spells found in the PHB, Monte Cook’s Ranger Revisited, Wizards.com Spellbook, Magic of Faerun, or Defenders of the Faith. Coming soon: new spells from Master’s of the Wild.
Any comments?
Here is my alt.ranger progression:
01) 1st Favored Enemy, Track, Regular Feat
02) Bonus Feat
03) Regular Feat
04) 1st Level Spells (Wis 12+), Animal Companions (from spell)
05) 2nd Favored Enemy
06) Regular Feat
07) Special Ability, 2nd Level Spells (Wis 14+)
08)
09) Regular Feat
10) 3rd Favored Enemy, Special Ability, 3rd Level Spells (Wis 16+)
11)
12) Regular Feat
13) Special Ability, 4th Level Spells (Wis 18+)
14)
15) 4th Favored Enemy, Regular Feat
16) Special Ability
17)
18) Regular Feat
19) Special Ability
20) 5th Favored Enemy
Notes: Special abilities could start at 10th level instead of 7th level. Anyone have a strong opinion one way or the other?
Spells start with "0" so the Wisdom requirement is for bonus spells. Otherwise, the ranger gains access at the next level. Each spell level progresses as follows: 0-1-2-2-3-3-3-4. Four spells per spell level is the max for the ranger, unless he has bonus spells. At 20th level, rangers have 4 spells per spell level. In case anyone is curious, I also use this progression for the Paladin.
Game Rule Information
Same as PHB: Abilities, Alignment, Hit Die, BAB, Saving Throws, Class Skills, Spells (except as noted below), Track, Table 3-14: Ranger Favored Enemies.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Same as the PHB, except the ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting in light or no armor “virtual feats” are dropped. They will be replaced by one bonus feat at second level, an expanded spell list, and a better spell progression.
Favored Enemy: Same as the PHB, except rangers may choose their own race as a favored enemy without being evil.
Bonus Feat: At 2nd level rangers gain a bonus feat.
New Feats: Rangers may choose Favored Enemy Strike and Favored Enemy Critical Strike found in Monte Cook’s “The Ranger Revisited.”
Special Ability: Starting at 7th level and every three levels thereafter rangers gain a special ability from the following list:
Smite Favored Enemy – Drawing upon the power of nature, the ranger may smite any favored enemy once per day. The smite must be declared before the attack roll is made, and it is used up for that day regardless of success or failure. Smite is a melee attack that grants a +4 to the attack roll and adds the ranger’s class level to the damage roll.
Improved Favored Enemy – Add a +1 bonus to all favored enemies.
Uncanny Dodge (dex bonus to AC) – As the barbarian ability in the PHB.
Uncanny Dodge (cannot be flanked) – As the barbarian ability in the PHB.
Skill Boost – The ranger gains a feat that helps his skills. He must choose from the following list: Alertness, Athletic, Endurance, Forester, Greater Skill Focus, Skill Focus, Stealthy, and Survivor. (Note: the Skill Focus feat increases a skill by +3, not +2. Likewise Greater Skill Focus gives a non-stackable +5 bonus. This is an official house rule.)
Skill Mastery – As the rogue ability in the PHB.
Spell List:
1 – Alarm, Animal Friendship, Camouflage*, Delay Poison, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect Snares and Pits, Entangle, Exacting Shot*, Expeditious Retreat*, Hunter’s Mercy*, Low Light Vision*, Magic Fang, Pass Without Trace, Read Magic, Resist Elements, Speak with Animals, Summon Nature’s Ally I, Surefoot*
2 – Animal Messenger, Barkskin*, Blight Enemies*, Briar Web*, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Hold Animal, One with the Land*, Protection from Elements, Sleep, Snare, Speak with Plants, Summon Nature’s Ally II
3 – Blade Thirst*, Control Plants, Cure Moderate Wounds, Diminish Plants, Easy Climb*, Greater Magic Fang, Heal Animal Companion*, Neutralize Poison, Plant Growth, Remove Disease, Summon Nature’s Ally III, Tree Shape, Water Walk, Wild Stealth*
4 – Commune with Nature*, Cure Serious Wounds, Foebane*, Freedom of Movement, Nondetection, Polymorph Self, Summon Nature’s Ally IV, Tree Stride, Wall of Thorns*, Windwall, Unite Allies*
*New Ranger spells found in the PHB, Monte Cook’s Ranger Revisited, Wizards.com Spellbook, Magic of Faerun, or Defenders of the Faith. Coming soon: new spells from Master’s of the Wild.
Any comments?
Similar Threads
