[Rant] Armor as DR is bad !

[AeroDm]

However, the concept of his points doesn't really jive with me, for some reason. High-level fighers can take dozens of full-force blows from sword and axes, because "their high hit points represent their ability to turn a grievous wound into a lesser one through dodging etc. This just seems so round-about for me. When my Fighter is at 35 hit point out of a total of 100, is he really injured? It just doesn't seem like he is, when you know that he can still take about five longsword in the gut and be okay.

Fanog

Although Vita/Wounds has its problems, I think a system similar to it is vital (I am filled with shame from than pun) for a DR system to truly work. The great thing about VPWP is that it enables you to remove some of the oddities about D&D where high level characters can not only be stabbed many times, but can fall hundreds of feet without a problem. While you are in Vita you are not being wounded, just fatigued, so those 'longswords to the gut' turn into narrow dodges.

So maybe VPWP isn't necessary to use armor DR, but I think it helps set a prescedent that removes certain flaws. DR only aids on wounds, so dagger wielders can still slash away. Maybe they can't bust through your platemail DR with 10 str and d4 dmg even on a crit, but at 0 vita you lose 2 strength/dex and cannot run or charge.

One peasant still won't beat a knight under VPWP, but a group will because one his vita is gone they relentlessly grapple his fatigued self, pull off his helmet, and coup de grace his face.

 

[KarinsDad]

One thing about Armor-as-DR is the "immune to dagger" effect. Having a DR of 4 makes you immune to these weapons (baring Str bonus of course)*

Strength bonus puts it over.

Criticals put it over.

Magic weapons put it over (although magic armor could offset this).

There is no immunity there, rather it is a low frequency of occurance (i.e. think of it as a resistance to daggers).


We should ask Enkhidu since he does that SCA stuff.

Should daggers have any real chance of piercing plate mail?

 

[KarinsDad]

What do you all think of adding another wrinkle into the discussion - if armor grants DR, would it be overcome by Adamantine (or other materials with a substantially greater hardness)?

I have no problem with harder materials getting through armor.

Similar to the iron age weapons devastating the bronze age weapons.

However, I might make it that you get the better of the two: hardness bonus of weapon or magic bonus of weapon. I do not think that they should necessarily stack.

 

[Aaron2]

Strength bonus puts it over.

Criticals put it over.

Magic weapons put it over (although magic armor could offset this).

There is no immunity there, rather it is a low frequency of occurance (i.e. think of it as a resistance to daggers).

Its not so much that they get immune to daggers but that DR affects weapons differently. Having DR makes two-handed weapons significantly better. I saw this alot in Runequest. Two-weapon fighting is already sub-optimal, it will be moreso since the DR will, in effect, absorb twice as much damage.

Armor as AC reduces the damage of every weapon by the same percentage. Thus two attacks a 1d8 are as good as one attack at 2d8 (assuming same to-hit chance). This will also affect criticals since a 19-20/x2 critical won't be as good as a x3 one.

Should daggers have any real chance of piercing plate mail?

Daggers were often used to kill downed or wounded knights. Usually by jabbing it in they eyes. There is one battle, whose name escapes me, where the Frenchmen put away their swords and drew their daggers before the battle began. The other side immediately fled.


Aaron

 

[KarinsDad]

Its not so much that they get immune to daggers but that DR affects weapons differently. Having DR makes two-handed weapons significantly better. I saw this alot in Runequest. Two-weapon fighting is already sub-optimal, it will be moreso since the DR will, in effect, absorb twice as much damage.

This is true.

STR 16 Human Fighter using Longsword and Short sword vs. using GreatAxe (no magic, ignoring crits):

50% chance to hit with each of two weapons old system averages 7 points of damage.

60% chance to hit with one two handed weapon old system averages 5.7 points of damage.


70% chance to hit with each of two weapons new system with DR 4 averages 4.2 points of damage.

80% chance to hit with one two handed weapon new system with DR 4 averages 4.4 points of damage.


However, two lighter weapon attacks against a guy in plate armor SHOULD do less damage than a single heavier weapon. In the old system (illustrated above), that was not the case. Hence, it appears (using just this one example) that DR makes more sense yet again in the two weapon vs. two handed weapon case.

Armor as AC reduces the damage of every weapon by the same percentage. Thus two attacks a 1d8 are as good as one attack at 2d8 (assuming same to-hit chance). This will also affect criticals since a 19-20/x2 critical won't be as good as a x3 one.

A single 19-20/x2 critical won't be as good as a x3 one. Agreed.

But, the 19-20 critical will happen twice as often in combat.

The EXTRA damage (assuming an average of 8 points per die roll with bonuses) due to threatening becomes:

(8 points of damage on roll of 20 + 8 points of damage on roll of 19) * chance to hit

versus (16 points of damage on roll of 20) * chance to hit

This is identical damage as long as a single non-critical attack averages as much damage or more than the DR of the armor.

Sure, if you are talking daggers versus punching daggers with no strength bonus, there is a slight difference here. But, not for any real weapons for real combatants.

 

[Aaron2]

However, two lighter weapon attacks against a guy in plate armor SHOULD do less damage than a single heavier weapon. In the old system (illustrated above), that was not the case. Hence, it appears (using just this one example) that DR makes more sense yet again in the two weapon vs. two handed weapon case.

This is just a case of knowing the effects of a rules change before implementing it. If your running a Swashbuckler campaign where you want to encourage the use or rapiers (where the base damage may not exceed the armor bonus and, thus, the extra threat is wasted) or two-weapon fighting, then armor-as-DR will not help.

So, I wouldn't say "Armor as DR is bad", but "Armor as DR discourages some character concepts". But, that's not quite as thread-worthy.


Aaron

 

[KarinsDad]

This is just a case of knowing the effects of a rules change before implementing it. If your running a Swashbuckler campaign where you want to encourage the use or rapiers (where the base damage may not exceed the armor bonus and, thus, the extra threat is wasted) or two-weapon fighting, then armor-as-DR will not help.

Agreed. However, in those types of campaigns, I would also not have armors above a chain shirt (or possibly chain mail for a tower guard or something) too often either.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Ok, let me take a stab at it.

Natural Armor becomes a DR equivalent.

Regular Armor becomes:

Full Plate: Armor Bonus +4: DR: +4
Half Plate: Armor Bonus +3: DR: +4
Splint/Banded: Armor Bonus +3: DR: +3
Breastplate/Chainmail: Armor Bonus +2: DR: +3
Scale Mail/Chain Shirt: Armor Bonus +2: DR: +2
Hide/Studded Leather: Armor Bonus +1: DR: +2
Leather: Armor Bonus +1: DR: +1
Padded: Armor Bonus 0: DR: +1
No Armor: Armor Bonus 0: DR: +0

Mage Armor and similar protections (Bracers of Armor) are now DR.

Armor Enhancement bonuses for armor (not shields) are DR.

All other bonuses to AC (e.g. shields, Rings of Protection, Dex modifiers, Dodge, etc.) are still AC bonuses.

All characters (and monsters) get the Power Attack feat for free (i.e. the ability to attempt to aim for a weak spot).


Ok, not too many rules changes here. How is this unbalanced? What core rules does this upset or force to be changed as well?


Granted, I agree that this is more cumbersome, but that is not the issue. The issue is that creating a DR system is not that hard to implement, nor does it have to affect that many rules (as per your supposition).

If you say that every creature has the Power Attack feat for free, there are some interesting consequences which need to be thought through, such as what happens to light weapons and what are the prereqs for the Power Attack "chain" of feats. Second, Power Attack is an attempt to punch through armour by force, not bypass it with finesse, which seems to be the rationale advanced for it above. If you say it can be used with light weapons, you have a balance issue with the dual-weapon wielding high Dex character. Which means tinkering with feats like Weapon Finesse and Two Weapon Fighting. If you swap the "every creature gets Power Attack" with a general rule that any creature can swap points of BAB for points of damage, you get a balance issue with everyone now able to do the almighty smackdown on everyone else, and see how long your wizard PCs last in that environment (or even the "everyone has Power Attack" environment). Making natural armour DR instead of AC has its own problems, as many large creatures, being the staple of fantasy gaming, have very high natural armour bonuses, meaning they then become immune to most injuries, and with whopping hit points even the Power Attacking fighter is going to take too long to take them down before they eviscerate the party (because they've got stupendous Strength and are "power attacking" every attack). So perhaps reduce their hit points - by reducing their Hit Dice? Which affects their BAB, meaning they can't Power Attack as much, which means they're easy prey for high level parties. And so on. Somewhere there's a balance, but personally I don't want to be the one spending 5 years of my time playtesting it. For each "little" change there are possibly significant consequences. Armour as DR works in games and combat systems where humans and humanoids are almost the only protagonists - Medium creatures of average Strength and Dexterity. If you can find a system which works as efficiently and as well balanced as the D&D combat system when a dragon's fighting a pixie, [irony] and it meets some sort of self-determined test of "realism" [/irony], I salute you.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[jester47]

[Long]

Hey guys, don't waste your time trying to make it more realistic by adding rules.

Here's what I did. First, I restated what hitponts represent. In my campaign they represent luck and divine favor, the ability to defend yourself and roll with the minor hits that actually land, and to some degree physical toughness (but only if you have a con bonus).

Don't worry armor comes into this, keep reading.

As a fight goes on, people get tired, their luck runs out, they take a few scrapes. When it all runs out, they recieve a mortal wound (drop to 0 or below).

For a while I was working on my EMT I. The thing is, I noticed (and monte wrote about this) that when people get hurt beyond a small broken bone or a heavily bleeding-but not deadly cut (simple injuries), they are ussually in danger of dying. If you have trouble moving after getting hurt you are probably on death's door. (the reference is intentional)

Looking at hit points this way also helps to answer another question- why do incorporeal creatures have hit points? If hit points represent physical damage capacity then incorporeal creatures should not have hit points! (granted, players have to be able to defeat them somehow, but looking at the HP/AC mechanic the way I do above answers this question.

But what about cure X wounds spells?

What about them? They are positive energy. They heal the minor/major cuts and bruises, restore luck and devine favor, and get rid of the effects of fatigue from battle. As for undead, charging a negative energy creature with positive energy puts the forces that drive the creature back in alignment and thus hurt it.

AC represents some other factors. It represents that armor can be hard to get by because its metal. It represents how fast someone can move (notice this is not "rolling with the punches" but rather staying clear of them.). It represents thick skin and scales. It represents energy shields. It represents the log you are hiding behind.

DR is based on the idea (one that is in the SRD and PH) that when an enemy makes a sucessful attack it is assumed they landed a blow. If you change what hit points mean (basicly luck, stamina, and skill in self defence -- on a side note, the skill in harming others is the BAB...) then you are assumeing that any loss of hit points that does not cross the 0 line is not an actual connection with the body, but rather the enemy wearing down his opponent. The "touche" is when the hps hit 0. This means that the attacker has found the chink in the armor, the flaw in the targets technique, swung a mighty blow that penetrates the armor etc etc. This makes DR a moot point.

Furthermore, archeological and trauma room evidence supports this way of dealing with fantasy damage. Soldiers ussually only recieve one wound. Many Medieval battlefields indicate that most of the dead were severly wounded only once. Court TV supports this also. The guy trying to shoot the lawyer. Using this outlook on the mechanic, you can see the lawyers hps dropping with every shot. He takes some fleshwounds, but he never crosses 0. Cinema is another argument. Indigo Montoya and the fight with the man in black and the fight with six fingered man (granted in that last one both characters he take 5 injuries- but Montoya has the die hard feat!). Any lightsaber duel. And the killing blow almost always happens when someones luck runs out (guy with the helmet at the beginning of Saving Private Ryan) they get worn out (Montoya vs. MIB) or someone figures out your style (Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul) or someone is vastly more experienced (vader vs. Luke).

Dropping below 0 means a character is unconscious. But what does that mean? In my game it means that while the character may still be awake and aware they are in no condition to do anything, mentally or physically. They are in shock if they are not actually unconscious.

This all also works well with the subdual damage system and is more similar to it. I think looking at the HP/AC system this way restores the realism without changing anything. And it is how I am running my game from now on.

YMMV

Aaron.

 

[Enkhidu]

jester,

How does DR fit into this outlook on hit points? From a quick read through, they seem to hae no place...