RANT: Attacks of Opportunity

[delericho]

I don't like AOO's. Dealing with new or part-time players, they can't parse the rules.

Fair enough. With new players, I introduce them to the rules gradually, and build up.

Dealing with some expert power gamers, they take a very long time mapping out moves to avoid all possible AOO's.

Two questions leap to mind:

1) If they're really expert players, why are they taking so long?
2) Why does the DM allow them to take so long with their action? The character doesn't have time to work out his exact move ahead of time, accounting for every possibility, so why does the player get to? (Or, to put it another way, if a player tried that sort of nonsense at my table, he would be told in short order to get a move on.)

(1) Player may not know a priori if someone can hit them. (Hidden, invisible, unarmed, armed with reach weapon, natural reach, etc.) Need to track exceptions for cover.
(4) This is a forward-looking statement that some players have difficulty with. In other words, you need to mentally map out the entire future move before you can determine if starting the move stops the move and lets someone else act first (AOO).
(5) Then you also need to mentally track if any or all opponents have made AOO's earlier in the turn, against anyone, so as to be eligible to take AOO's. Then you need to know whether any have Combat Reflexes to act as an exception to that.

Nope. The player just needs to lift his miniature and move it, one step at a time, through the chosen path. At any stage, the DM may interrupt saying "Attack of Opportunity" if someone's going to take one. Likewise, when the DM is acting, the player just needs to note whether or not he can take an AoO, and decide (quickly) whether to call for one or not.

Each player needs to keep track of (1) whether he can take an attack of opportunity and (2) whether has already used all of his attacks of opportunity in the round.

More generally, for part-time game players, the idea of it being "my turn" in a game and having it be invisibly interrupted by someone else getting an action is very unsettling and confusing.

As I've said, I introduce new players to the rules gradually. However, I've never had a new player fail to grasp the AoO rules after I've explained it to them once. They're just not that hard.

 

[ValhallaGH]

So when predicting AOO's you need to consider the past (enemies making AOO's in previous turn), the present (my action, position on map, all enemy positions on map, enemy weapons wielded, cover), and the future (entire movement I'm about to take), before knowing whether AOO's will occur. That's a lot, and a lot of the information is not available by just looking at the battlemap.

That's the minimum level of analysis and consideration that I expect from a fully functional human being.

I can't conceive of an in-offensive way to say the rest of my point, so I shall leave it hanging.

 

[shilsen]

That's the minimum level of analysis and consideration that I expect from a fully functional human being.

Ah, so you haven't met many real human beings then? If you had, you wouldn't be expecting that level of competence from them

Then again, you did say "fully functional", and the average human being doesn't even come close, so I guess you're still correct.

 

[Thanee]

Humans are broken!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

The problem I find is that it slows the game down unnecessarily. Sometimes I pine for the good 'ol days of "attack, hit, damage" rather than special maneuvres out the ying-yang (with all the assorted AoO that can come with it). AoO can totally destroy a player's momentum as he has to wait for someone else to interrupt and take a turn/attack.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

"AoOs are so difficult. It's like taking a calculus class!"

Disagree (in that I agree they're easy).

"It's impossible to resolve AoOs without using miniatures."

Agree.

"AoOs are confusing."

Disagree.

What is wrong with you people?

1. Can someone hit me?
2. Did I just do something that provokes an AoO?

1. Can someone hit me right now?
2. Am I still going to move at least 5 feet this turn?
3. Will I have moved more than 5 feet this turn?

What, exactly, do you find difficult, confusing, or impossible about these simple questions?

Irrelevant. PCs go out of their way to avoid AoOs.

Except the part about some kind of "graphical interface" like a battlemat. Unless you've got the right kind of mind for it, keeping track of where everything is without a graphical interface is difficult. It's worse when the party is large, or there are lots of opponents, or people are throwing around area-of-effect spells, and what have you. No one wants to die because it turns out they were ten feet closer to the epicenter of the PC mage's Fireball spell than they thought they were. On the same note, no one wants to die because they drew an AoO and didn't think they should have.

The DnD AC system sucks, IMO. PCs do not have control over their own AC score. They have little way of avoiding damage. Fighting defensively and Combat Expertise stick nasty penalties on you, Dodge is weak, and no one uses Mobility because they never draw AoOs anyway. Casting defensively is easy; it has to be.

Avoiding AoOs is one of the few ways PCs can avoid taking non-spell damage, so they'll go out of their way to "fight smart" and avoid AoOs. Avoiding AoOs is a lot easier with a battlemat. In fact, I find it amazing that, without unusual circumstances, a PC might actually draw an AoO if there's a battlemat around.

People don't like AoOs because, instead of moving freely, you spend a lot of time plotting courses to avoid AoOs.

 

[wayne62682]

My problem with AoOs is exactly what (Psi)SeveredHead said. AoOs may be realistic, but they draw out the game because I find myself trying to plot the optimum course to avoid triggering one rather than just moving and doing what I want to do. I have found that games without the battle grid tend to focus less on AoOs and assume that unless the creature has reach or you do something that triggers one without moving away from the creature, it's automatically assumed that the PC will attempt to move without triggering one, rather than force the player to sit for 5 minutes and ponder the proper course to move his/her miniature as though he/she were playing Chess.

 

[BSF]

(2) There's a 100-odd list of cases that need to be memorized or tabulated for these "do somethings".

I thought about it and decided to count them. It is an intimidating looking list of 64 items in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm) But that list includes notations for things such as melee attacks do not draw attacks of opportunity, Speaking does not draw an attack of opportunity, casting a spell does. Some of them are pretty easy to guess at even if you have never played the game.

I think the confusion mostly stems from strange interactions. Can you trip as an AoO? If so, when does it occur? Standing up from prone draws an AoO, so if you can trip as the person stands up, can you effectively keep them prone forever?

These are the questions that seem to create the most problems with AoOs.

(4) This is a forward-looking statement that some players have difficulty with. In other words, you need to mentally map out the entire future move before you can determine if starting the move stops the move and lets someone else act first (AOO).

Not quite. I have seen players intentionally play rash, confident PCs that choose an action and strive to make that action happen. Yes, it is a dangerous mentality, but if they have fun playing it, it's all good. There are also times when you need to reach a goal and it is heroic to charge past the enemy, drawing attacks, just to get to your goal.

Of course, if the ruleset makes you stop moving as soon as you draw contact, this option doesn't exist.

It is a playstyle choice that you need to carefully plot out every possible variation and then act on the safest possible course.

(5) Then you also need to mentally track if any or all opponents have made AOO's earlier in the turn, against anyone, so as to be eligible to take AOO's. Then you need to know whether any have Combat Reflexes to act as an exception to that.

This can be a pain once you have dozens of opponents on the board. I have run battles where there were literally hundreds of opponents on the board and occasionally I would find it difficult to keep track of. Fortunately the PCs made this easier by trying to eliminate as many enemies as quickly as possible.

Most of the time though, it is fairly simple for me to keep track of the enemies. I expect the players to be able to track their own AoOs.

More generally, for part-time game players, the idea of it being "my turn" in a game and having it be invisibly interrupted by someone else getting an action is very unsettling and confusing.

I hadn't thought along those lines since I have never seen that myself. It seems like there are so many board and card games anymore where you get to do something during somebody else's turn that it wouldn't be too confusing. But that all depends on exposure to various games I suppose.

 

[Unkabear]

I simply tend to play the more skillfull character and go with rogue or scout and take several levels in tumble. It is remarkably easy to make a dc 15 tumble check to avoid aoo's. But that is just me.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I simply tend to play the more skillfull character and go with rogue or scout and take several levels in tumble. It is remarkably easy to make a dc 15 tumble check to avoid aoo's. But that is just me.

Well, lots of PCs don't take Tumble, which forces you to move at half speed.