Rant - "Its Overpowered.. what shall we do?"

It's fine, not an issue.

One of our strategies, in fact, was to cast entangle on the enemies and the monk and my ftr/rog would wade into the mess. A reflex save is not a big deal on a first level spell, and if it is, it's because you are supposed to get caught. That's called your weakness.
 

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Entangle is a hand me down spell. Love it at low levels, rarely see it higher up. Like color spray it has a window of use. Potent in right circumstances but balanced by its dependence on the environment.
 

entangle is teh broken!!1!111!!!w00t!!!11!!1!

And I'm not too sure I like the look of that building over there, either.

:uhoh:

I've never had a problem with entangle - it's an effective spell, yes, but that's kind of the point of magic, right?

Here's what I hope will be a constructive contribution to the discussion: the GM gets access to all the same spells as the players.
 

Easy fix for Entangle: reduce the Strength/Escape artist check DC to 15 instead of 20. That gives you a decent chance to move even if you failed your save.
 

Oh do I agree.....

reveal said:
Personally, I think Evard's Blank Tentacles are more devastating than Entangle. I'm with Len, it's been used by both sides in my group and it hasn't "devastated" anyone.

Yeah EBT is defnintely in need of some nerfing. So much so that my group (at 10th level) used EBT to take down that CR17 Mind flayer nast in the MM1. Work it out - thats 7 CRs higher than a normal 4 man group should be able to handle. Even though there were 8 PCs, even after some "CR adjusting" the party was still a CR16 challenge to the flayer. However, without that one spell, the story would have been far different.

Bottom line, that spell prevented the BBEG from escaping, using Mindblast etc, because it could never get free of the spell's area of effect and beat the grapple check required.

EBT. No SR, No Save. One hell of a grapple check required to avoid.

Proposed fix? Adjust the grapple modifier to a flat +12 (+4 [for being a 4th level spell] +4 [Large] +4 [Str 19]). Do not let it scale with the caster level as stated in the PH.

Just my two cents......Entangle has nothin on EBT. Fine as is.
 

Cheiromancer, thanks for your comments... both hear on the HR thread.

The problem was not getting some comments.. the ones I got were helpful. The problem is twofold:

. A> Folks complaining that something is broke and not willing to look at alternatives. As SweeneyTodd said, complaining is easy.

. B> I had not, until your last post, gotten input of 'Ya, that looks about right.'

The funny thing is, I am one of the folks saying that Entangle is okay as written but that it requires some extra work on the DM's part to do right. Things like ensuring the terrain is done right for one.

This also layers on top of a couple years worth of seeing treads like this occasionally surface, where lots of bandwidth is soaked into complaining with so little effort towards doing something productive. Personally, I visit these boards in order to catch issues before they come up in my game..and have a good resolution to them. Lots of threads here have been useful in that regard, and I try to post only when my input is productive as well..

{except for the occasional Rant.. of which this is my first :) }

It just really bugged by this time the disparity between the complainers and the people willing to look into fixing the apparent problem.

Thanks all! I feel much better now, and no.. it has nothing to do with the meds :p
 

Izerath said:
Yeah EBT is defnintely in need of some nerfing. So much so that my group (at 10th level) used EBT to take down that CR17 Mind flayer nast in the MM1.

:confused:

I'm thinking you maybe misread or misplayed that particular monster's abilities. Between its Concentration and plane shift ability, escaping from a mere Evard's black tentacles ought to have been chid's play for a regular mind flayer. How one 9 CRs higher couldn't do the same is mind-boggling.
 

I just chortle with glee when my NPC's use it... and then follow it with insect swarm.

I don't see much a problem... dead PCs occasionally but really, that's it :)
 

Primitive Screwhead said:
Cheiromancer, thanks for your comments...

You're welcome. I know I crave comments on my threads, so I try to give feedback to others.

There's a funny kind of rhythm involved in posting. You post to a thread, then a day or so later see that it is still going strong. So you post again. Someone responds to you and you post. Then you wait a while to see what happens.

But if all the people who might post to a thread wait a while to see what happens, it dies and drops off the first page. And then (except in unusual cases) you forget about it.

So sometimes a thread with a lot of life to it will die. And other threads go on forever (like the flaming whip thread!). It's very odd.
 

Mark Chance said:
:confused:

I'm thinking you maybe misread or misplayed that particular monster's abilities. Between its Concentration and plane shift ability, escaping from a mere Evard's black tentacles ought to have been chid's play for a regular mind flayer. How one 9 CRs higher couldn't do the same is mind-boggling.

Actually, I think you are the one misreading here. When a mind flayer uses plane shift, he's not tactically repositioning himself. Rahter, the fight's over and he's running off with his tail between his legs to a randoom spot on some other plane. He doesn't poof back.

If he hangs around, the tentacles grapple the flayer and squeeze the hell out of him. It's a problem.

In general, the "crowd control" spells--entangle, web, plant growth, spike stones, stone spikes, and EBT--are problematice for a couple of reasons.

First, they don't actually remove foes from the battlefield. Rather, they clutter up the battlefield even more while preventing the melee guys from getting to the trapped NPC's.

Second, these spells are basically "scissors-without-rocks", i.e. unlike most ways you can be attacked in D&D, there are scant few actual counter-defenses offered against their effects. The designers seemed to be of a mind that the spells should occupy huge areas, characters should be boned even if they make whatever saving throw is allowed, spell resistance shouldn't apply, the effects should be dismissable at will by the caster so he has a license to cast them with casual abandon, and worst of all that there really shouldn't be a lot of specific defenses against crowd-control. Notice how few monsters have ranks in Escape Artist, and that Freedom of Movement is a 4th-level spell, and it's not even on the Sor/Wiz list.

Oh, and arguably many of those spells just have horrible mechanics. Entangle is an especially bad case. If someone trapped in an entangle actually makes their DC 20 Strength check, they then get to do....nothing. That was a full-round action. They spend their whole action getting loose, and then stand around waiting to have make yet another Reflex save to avoid being trapped all over again. Which means those rolls are just wasting everyone's time. Likewise, even if you manage to avoid getting trapped in a web, it's a full-round action to extricate onself--even if you only need to move five or ten feet to get out.

People don't suggest ways to address the problems presented by these spells because there isn't a lot to do other than ban them or create a whole subset of rules to provide counter-defenses (basically doing what the designers should have done). In my campaign, I have merged Hide & Move Silently into a single skill. If a monster has both skills listed in his stat blocks, one becomes ranks of Escape Artist. That works out for me.

With entangle, you just have to steer the battles away from verdant areas when you don't want the spell scrubbing the tactical element of the game. I love the Silver Marches for just that reason.

With web, 25 foot ceilings are your friends. The one thing about web I do want to point out is that it does discourage fireballers from cutting loose, which you may consider a saving grace. But personally, if a character's hemmed-in and can't actually do anything, I'd just as soon take him off the initiative chart. YMMV.
 
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