Rant - "Its Overpowered.. what shall we do?"

[dagger]

Then there are people like me, Entangle is fine as written.

Same here

 

[Felon]

Same here

But since you and Tree don't quantify your position, don't rebutt or address any of the issues raised, don't really do anything but post a sentence (fragment) for the sake of being contrary, the only recourse is to write off your pro-status-quo attitude as blissfully ignorant of how these crowd-control spells can be abused. Certainly, if nobody's playing a druid, a lot of these concerns just go "poof".

The most excruciating toothache in the world is "fine" if it's not your toothache.

 

[greywulf]

Felon, by my reading, the entangled guy can make a DC20 STR or Escape Artist then a half-move. In other words, they can try to get out of the range of the entangle. On the caster's next round (not the round of entangled guys), if they're still in the entangled area, they have to make another Reflex save, but if that's done, they are free to do whatever they want up to or make another half-move on their turn. Spells, ranged combat, close combat, whatever.

I think it's one of the more accurate spells in the book - in as much as spells CAN be accurate, of course

I've had a Druid cast the spell, then spend the entire duration of the spell stopping the other players from setting fire to the plants! He'd just convinced the Cleric that burning Goblins was an evil act when the spell expired........

Being up to your waist in brambles or whatever would be seriously impeding. Yes, it's powerful for a 1st level spell. Yes, it probably should be 2nd level not first. But I'd still keep it just where it is, as it is; it's a "give the good guys a break" spell. Take this away from the 1st level druid or Plant-loving cleric and they've lost their best combat schtick. At best, a 1st level druid could only cast it twice a day anyway.

At higher levels, if druids use Entangle a lot, the bad guys will reacted to this specific threat and start buying in Potions of Free Movement (or whatever - DMG not in arm's reach), Fly, or pick their battles so there's solid stone beneath their feet. If there was a problem at all, I'd see it as a self-correcting one.

As to the apathy part, I do agree. /me too style posts don't really add much to the discussion. I'd rather see those style posts though and be reassured that I'm not the only one that not have the posts and see an empty thread.

 

[Felon]

Felon, by my reading, the entangled guy can make a DC20 STR or Escape Artist then a half-move. In other words, they can try to get out of the range of the entangle.

I stand corrected. It's web that takes a full-round just to extricate oneself. That's another problem with these spells--they don't use consistent mechanics.

Howeveer, somebody moving at half-speed has a pretty good chance of not getting out of a 40 foot spread.

Yes, it probably should be 2nd level not first. But I'd still keep it just where it is, as it is; it's a "give the good guys a break" spell. Take this away from the 1st level druid or Plant-loving cleric and they've lost their best combat schtick. At best, a 1st level druid could only cast it twice a day anyway.

See, I don't see where druids need the break. They're easily the most powerful class in the game. That riding dog animal companion is tougher than a 1st-level fighter.

At higher levels, if druids use Entangle a lot, the bad guys will reacted to this specific threat and start buying in Potions of Free Movement (or whatever - DMG not in arm's reach), Fly, or pick their battles so there's solid stone beneath their feet. If there was a problem at all, I'd see it as a self-correcting one.

To each their own, but I'd say you are illustrating my point. You can't come up with a simple rock for this scissor. It isn't terribly self-correcting. Having villains fly or carry around 4th-level potions at all times is a bit kludgy IMO.

Currently, I'm toying with the idea of keeping entangle at 1st-level, but making its duration concentration-based. But again, my adventures take place way up north anyway, so it's not quite the problem web is.

 

[Thanee]

Despite multiple posts of folks complaining about how devasting the spell is to thier games, very little effort/thought by those folks were applied to correcting the issue. At this point, the thread has wandered far enough down page to not be picked up again.

I actually recall multiple very easy and effective options how to make it less devastating from that thread.

But I also have to say, that it hasn't been devastating to our games so far. It's a good spell, but so are many others.

Bye
Thanee

 

[jmucchiello]

I find spike stones far more annoying since it does damage but you can't tell where it is.

My problem with the mechanics of the spells is Fly. Can you fly 5 feet above an entangle? 10 feet? How high do you need to be to be outside a spread area of effect. Spreads should spread up.

 

[Kelleris]

Oh, that mind flayer... The reason it died so easily is that someone at WotC had a stupid attack and forgot the rules for nonassociated class levels for monsters - spellcasting classes are always nonassociated (+1 CR per two class levels) unless they add on to natural spellcasting ability (which the mind flayer doesn't have) [p. 294]. That creature should actually be CR 12-13, and at CR 17 it's a splat waiting to happen no matter what you do. An EL 17 encounter would be more like four mind flayer sorcerer 9s.

As for the topic at hand, remember that the 1st-level spell grease grants a +10 competence bonus on Escape Artist and defensive grapple checks. Were I DMing, the mind flayer would have plane shifted away and come back properly lubricated. Of course, there also would have been 4 of them, spread apart enough to avoid all being snagged (if possible), so they might've instead greased each other.

EDIT: While I'm on the subject, the aboleth mage has the same problems as the mind flayer sorcerer. Those two creatures annoy me every time I see them...

 

[Mark Chance]

Actually, I think you are the one misreading here.

Nope, not I.

When a mind flayer uses plane shift, he's not tactically repositioning himself. Rahter, the fight's over and he's running off with his tail between his legs to a randoom spot on some other plane. He doesn't poof back.

If he hangs around, the tentacles grapple the flayer and squeeze the hell out of him. It's a problem.

Given the choice between escaping and dying, that's pretty much a no-brainer, especially for a highly-intelligent creature.

So, can you really kill a CR 17 mind flayer with just an Evard's black tentacles? No.

 

[Kelleris]

So, can you really kill a CR 17 mind flayer with just an Evard's black tentacles? No.

It is not CR 17! Sorry, that just really gets on my nerves.

Of course, the point stands. A 12th-13th level mind flayer sorcerer (therefore, actually CR 17) certainly wouldn't go down like that to an EBT. Of course, Izerath merely said that "the story would have been far different", implying that the spell was decisive, not that it was the only spell cast or the only action taken.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Thanee...
Yes, a number of comments in the 'tis broken' thread were suggestions on what should be fixed. However, when it came to a 'okay, hows this replacement' .... even with some of those suggestions included....

I chose to start a new thread in the HR forums as I felt it was not appropriate to discuss HRing a core spell in the Rules forum.. perhaps I should have stuck the the thread the debate started in. Perhaps not.

Oh well. I have a version that will work in my game, and I feel fits better to the style of play I want.

It is midly funny how threads evolve tho. Methinks I will go back to lurking for a while