Rant on d20

[Psion]

I'm glad Ryan Dancey was willing to say this.

I think anyone who doesn't recognize that the healing glitch is a glitch is selling you (and possibly themselves) something.

The fundamental problem is that it is VERY difficult to address this AND retain the simplicity of the HP system.

In my old 2e house rules, I split damage into "hit points" and "defense pool", a distinction that was essentially equivalent to d20 star wars' "wound points" and "vitality points." Using this distinction, I explained the "healing glitch" like this: "defense pool" damage is superficial scrapes, bruises, and fatigue, "hit points" represent telling physical daamge.

Now here's the rub with healing: healing is limited by how you use it. If you have a bandage, and you apply it to a person who only has scrapes, that doesn't do as much good as a bangage applied to a gushing wound. So healing was more relative.

But it is a little harder to see this if you are conflating "luck/skill/fatigue" and real damage. There is just something unsatisfying about assuming that HP represents this bundle of things yet healing basically treats it like luck, skill, and fatigue is not a factor at all and that the HP being healed are essentially treated like they are honest to goodness greivious bodily harm.

It seems like the simplest way to make HP as-is work is to make healing magic match level like natural healing does. But if you do this healing instantly becomes much very trivial.

Like I was telling the rather hostile MutantHamster a few pages ago, there is no easy way around this issue.

 

[mmadsen]

The problem with giving defence bonuses and lowering HP's is that then you must rework how spells do damage or do away with all of the classical direct damage spells like Fireball.

Certainly. If you're trying to house-rule something for your own campaign, you probably just have to outlaw direct-damage spells. Anything else could turn into too much work.

If, on the other hand, you're designing the next edition of D&D, as Dancey et al. were, then you just assign reasonable damage values to spells.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi mmadsen!

Certainly. If you're trying to house-rule something for your own campaign, you probably just have to outlaw direct-damage spells. Anything else could turn into too much work.

I made the same point on another thread. Other than the Armour to Damage Reduction modifications, changing fundamental mechanics like hit points will almost certainly require a 4th Edition.

If, on the other hand, you're designing the next edition of D&D, as Dancey et al. were, then you just asign reasonable damage values to spells.

Exactly!

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

mmadsen--

Something else that might be nice for future editions would be the ability to "dial in" (thanks Fuzion ) different settings in order to re-create just the feel you're after in a campaign--anything from grim and gritty to wild and wahoo.

Your comment about allowing players to choose BAB or APs over HPs got me thinking about it, though I think it would be better if this progression were fixed by the DM and held constant for all characters--otherwise it would be hard to present balanced adventures for your players.

For example, perhaps the DM would be able to choose between these options (amongst others) for a campaign...

OPTION I (Sword and Sorcery)

CLASS: BAB/AC/HP

Fighter: +1/+1/+3

Cleric: +.75/+.75/+2

Rogue: +.75/+.75/+1

Wizard: +.5/+.5/+0

(Starting HP=CON)

OPTION II (High Fantasy)

(As current system)

A method could also be presented to convert monsters and spells between the various options. For example, monsters using option I would have their AC improved by an amount equal to their HD, while their HPs would be equal to 10 plus 2 times their HD (assuming a d8 HD as for the Cleric above).

Note: I'm not advocating the use of the above numbers, they're just for purposes of illustration.

For option I it would be easy to add a simple mechanic like a fixed penalty for being wounded at 1/2 HP or less, unconscious at 1/4 or 0, and dead at 0 or negative HP or -10. (Similar to Pendragon)

BTW (as an aside), you also got me thinking...

Using the current system, how would it be, as a house rule, to re-name BAB to BCB (basic combat bonus), and allow the player to choose each round how much of it he wants to apply to attack (BAB) and how much to defense (AC)?

 

[mmadsen]

Other than the Armour to Damage Reduction modifications, changing fundamental mechanics like hit points will almost certainly require a 4th Edition.

Even that seemingly simple change, my Upper-Krusty friend, isn't trivial. As I said before, "If you play with armor as DR, and you keep Hit Points high, no one will ever get hurt, and combat will take forever."

If you want to keep Hit Points unchanged, but you want armor-as-DR, you have to drastically increase the damage weapons do. I'm thinking that increasing all the Crit Threat Ranges and letting Crits stack could get the effect you want, but I need to playtest it.

 

[SableWyvern]

Using the current system, how would it be, as a house rule, to re-name BAB to BCB (basic combat bonus), and allow the player to choose each round how much of it he wants to apply to attack (BAB) and how much to defense (AC)?

That's how rolemaster works. At high levels, you have to convert a large portion of your Offensive Bonus into parry, otherwise you'll take max damage every time from tough critters.

Also, note that Expertise and Improved Expertise already allow you to do this. Atlhough giving Improved Expertise to every character automatically wouldn't (IMO) unduly unbalance the game, it would certainly make combat different. You might want to increase BAB advancement a tad.

 

[hong]

It seems like the simplest way to make HP as-is work is to make healing magic match level like natural healing does. But if you do this healing instantly becomes much very trivial.

This might not be such a bad thing; at high levels, the heal spell makes healing pretty much trivial anyway. The threats you face have less to do with being down on hp as with individual combats being lethal, and the resources you have to look out for become spells, item charges and other limited-use abilities. Even at low levels, one of the practical difficulties is often convincing someone to be the party medic. If healing was made easier, this would become less of a chore.

And if you still wanted to limit healing, the existing caps could be applied. Just vary the cap depending on how significant a role you want CLW to play when everyone is 15th level or above.

CLW: 1d8 + 1 pt/target level (max +5)
CMW: 3d8 + 1pt/target level (max +10)
CSW: 5d8 + 1pt/target level (max +15)
CCW: 7d8 + 1pt/target level (max +20)

But all of this is incredibly TEDIOUS AND DULL and just rehashes the same stuff that's been going around and around ever since D&D first appeared and someone got the idea "hey, wouldn't it be KQQl to use something besides hit points?" And speaking of which:


The Gettysburg Address, the hit point version

Two score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth, upon this Hobby, a new Ruleset, conceived in Wisconsin, and dedicated to the proposition that not all hit points are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that ruleset, or any ruleset so conceived, and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met here on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of it as a final resting place for those who here took massive damage that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But in a larger sense we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, with positive and negative hit points, and -10 hit points, who struggled here, have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or subtract more hit points. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say about hit points, but can never forget that actually they lost all their hit points here. It is for us, those who have hit points left, rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they have, thus far, so nobly carried on. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the hit points remaining to us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they here gave the last full measure of damage -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have lost their hit points in vain; that this nation shall have eight hours of rest and healing; and that this ruleset of hit points, by hit points, for hit points, shall not perish from the earth.

 

[hong]

The Preamble to the United Nations Charter, the hit point version

WE THE DESIGNERS OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS DETERMINED

to introduce succeeding generations to the scourge of war, which twice in our corporate history has brought untold profits to TSR, Wizards of the Coast and now Hasbro, and

to reaffirm faith in hit points, in the dignity and worth of classes and levels, in the equal rights of men and women and of races large and small, and

to establish conditions under which fairness and respect for the obligations arising from Dungeon Masters and other sources of rules law can be maintained, and

to promote obesity, lack of exercise, poor personal hygiene and better standards of life in pursuit of decadence,


AND FOR THESE ENDS

to invade and despoil the dominions of uncooperative neighbours ("go into dungeons"), and

to unite our strength to liquidate non-signatories by means of armed force ("kill the monsters"), and

to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, the proper economic and social advancement of all player characters ("take their treasure"),


HAVE RESOLVED TO COMBINE OUR EFFORTS TO ACCOMPLISH THESE AIMS

Accordingly, our respective Corporate Vice-Presidents, through representatives assembled in the city of Seattle, who have exhibited their full powers found to be in good and due form, have agreed to the present Charter of Dungeons and Dragons and do hereby establish a completely revised ruleset to be known as 3rd Edition.

 

[hong]

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the hit point version
[abridged version]

Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal as 1 HD humanoids. They are endowed with hit points and saving throws, and should not indulge their attack bonus without good reason.

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the attributes and abilities set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, template, sex, type, subtype, hit dice, climate, religion, political or other opinion (or lack thereof), property, Challenge Rating or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the Dungeon Master or campaign to which a character belongs, whether it be simulationist, gamist, dramatist, or any-other-ist-you-care-to-name.

Article 3.
Everyone has the right to hit points, saving throws and ability scores (except where indicated otherwise by their type).

Article 4.
No one shall be held in servitude to their advancement; level advancement and extra hit points, saving throws and ability scores shall be a privilege of player characters.

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment that causes permanent loss of hit points or ability scores.

Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a creature and not an inanimate object. This extends to sentient magic items.

Article 7.
All are equal in the eyes of the ruleset and are entitled without any discrimination to equal treatment by the ruleset. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination ("rule 0").

Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the Sage for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the ruleset.

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary charm or compulsion effects, imprisonment or temporal stasis.

Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an online discussion forum, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

 

[bloodymage]

Hong, you obviously have way too much time on your hands. Just out of curiosity, did you grub for WotCs $100,000? Good luck to you if you did. That heritical treatment of sacred documents was hilarious!