Rant on d20

[mmadsen]

Re: Combat more deadly... the simple solution...

I think this makes combat much more deadly without requiring a major overhaul of the system. Thoughts?

If the goal is simply to make the game deadlier, all we have to do is double Damage or halve Hit Points. If the goal is to make it less heroic, all we have to do is remove extra Hit Dice.

I don't think those are the goals though. (Perhaps they are for some people.) I think the goal is to have a game as simple and heroic as D&D without the irrational side-effects of high Hit Points -- all the "weirdness" that hurts Suspension of Disbelief (for some, but not all, gamers).

 

[mmadsen]

The HP system is designed to ensure that higher level characters are simply harder to kill than lower level characters.

D&D actually handles this a few different ways. First, of course, high-level characters have more Hit Points; they can soak up more damage. Second, they have better Fort, Ref, and Will Saves; they tend to avoid more damage.

I agree with this design objective, but I'd put conditions on it. I don't think that the objective of "harder to kill" should apply in all situations. Specifically, I think it should not apply to many environmental effects. High level PCs should simply not be able to survive falls over a certain distance, being crushed under certain weights, being immersed in certain substances, or held without air for certain lengths of time.

I'm not sure that's a flaw with Hit Points per se so much as a flaw with massive Hit Points and the certainty they provide. A meta-gaming player can choose to have his character jump off a cliff knowing he'll survive. That shatters all Suspension of Disbelief.

 

[Oracular Vision]

Re: Combat more deadly... the simple solution...

It seems to me that a VERY simple and elegant way of making combat more deadly in a hurry is to make every successful hit do a little bit of Constitution damage - say, 1 point for a hit and 2 points for a critical hit. The Constitution damage suffered in this way (from combat) is healed normally with one notable exception - at the end of combat, when his wounds are bound and staunched, a character regains half the Constitution points he lost during the combat (round down).

I would also suggest that force effects (specifically Magic Missile) and probably all magical effects not deal this kind of damage - this is slash/bludgeon/pierce only. Otherwise a 6th-level sorcerer becomes ultra-deadly.

I think this makes combat much more deadly without requiring a major overhaul of the system. Thoughts?

--The Sigil

There are two things I think I would like to incorporate - armor not adding to AC but adding the same value as DR, and your idea of taking 1 pt of temporary CON damage per hit in melee, 2 pts for a critical hit. This will eliminate the ridiculously high AC's I am already seeing in 9th level characters, and make combat a more serious thing, you won't want to get hit so much anymore.

After the fight, you get half the temporary CON damage back as your wounds are staunched. Do you recover only 1 stat point per stat for overnight sleep too? This would really slow down dungeon exploration, as after two fights, the fighters will be too weakened to do anything anymore. This will make the party protect them better, and use magic more effectively, but it may well halve the number of times they can fight in one evening (currently, they can have three small fights and one large one per evening, this would reduce it to one small and one large I think.) But I like the implication! Fights will be less of a "I can take all the damage he can cause" situation to more of a "I better take this guy out fast." That's more realistic, and less meta-gaming. Of course the cleric can heal it all up, using more resources, which I also like.

When my party gets to their next gameworld next month, I will try it and tell you how it went.

 

[mmadsen]

We discussed, and discarded the idea of that damage should have a negative effect on your abilities. The reason is that systems which implement that concept often trap themselves in a downward spiral - the more damage you take, the harder it is for you to stop taking damage, etc. etc. etc.

I think that's a valid point, but there's already a less obvious spiral: when you hit 0 hp you're disabled, -1 you're dying, -10 you're dead.

The lack of some condition between "100% A-OK" and "Down" causes characters (both player and non player) to act in irrational ways.

The key is to make injuries dramatic and interesting without making the game more complex. People are playing D&D because they don't want bookkeeping -- except to track gp, xp, spell slots, wand charges, arrows, healing potions...

 

[mmadsen]

In other words: When the game tells you what hit points represent, it lies.

I'm glad Ryan Dancey was willing to say this.

 

[LostSoul]

Here's what I do with Hit Points:

Your first 10+Con mod represent your actual physical body. The rest are skill, luck, etc.
"Body points" heal at a rate of 1/8 hours of rest. The Hit Points heal at a rate of character level/hour of rest.
Critical hits do at least 1 point of damage to the body.
Body points must be healed before Hit Points can be recovered.
Cure spells & other types of magic heal the Body fast. They don't do so well for the Hit Points; but you can recover them fast enough.

It seems to work well. If I wanted to add in some kind of effect for a character who is "injured", I'd say that each hit to the Body does 1 point of ability damage.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Me & the various people I've played with over the last 15 or so years have never seen anything wrong with HP. It's quick and simple and seems to do the job fine. As for issues like a guy with 180 HP jumping off a 100' cliff and knowing he can survive due to high hit points...I thought that was where DM common sence came into play? Splat he's dead in my game. One man fighting to the last of his strength and killing 30 Orcs is heroic, jumping off the grand canyon is stupid.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Flexor!

As for issues like a guy with 180 HP jumping off a 100' cliff and knowing he can survive due to high hit points...I thought that was where DM common sence came into play? Splat he's dead in my game.

So you are admitting that hit points are broken.

 

[mmadsen]

After giving the basic gripes against Hit Points, Dancey points out their strengths:

Before we can get started talking about ways to fix hit points, we need to enumerate their advantages.

1) They're an incredibly simple mechanic, and since they need to be taught on day one, hour one of someone's first RPG experience, that's a very good thing.

2) They're intuitive (mostly, I believe, because so many other kinds of games have adopted them that it seems like they're a natural part of the universe now. You know that Pokemon have hit points, right?)

3) They make it easy to gauge an opponent's relative combat power.

4) Varying the envelope of hit point min-maxes via a die mechanic is a good way to reinforce distinctions between classes.

 

[mmadsen]

1) They're an incredibly simple mechanic, and since they need to be taught on day one, hour one of someone's first RPG experience, that's a very good thing.

They're certainly a simple mechanic. So is AC. Saves seem pretty simple too.

2) They're intuitive (mostly, I believe, because so many other kinds of games have adopted them that it seems like they're a natural part of the universe now. You know that Pokemon have hit points, right?)

Although they're simple, I'm not sure how intuitive they are, at least how they play out at higher levels. We wouldn't all be bickering about what they mean, how they're abstract, how they aren't physical damage but a combination of fatigue, luck, injuries, etc. if they were completely intuitive.

3) They make it easy to gauge an opponent's relative combat power.

No more so than level (or CR). Certainly a 10th-level Wizard isn't weaker than a 10th-level Fighter; that's what Hit Points would tell us.

4) Varying the envelope of hit point min-maxes via a die mechanic is a good way to reinforce distinctions between classes.

Varying Hit Points the same way we vary BAB, Saves, etc. does the same trick. We hardly need d4 and d10 Hit Dice to have weak Wizards who cast spells and strong Fighters who swing swords.