D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Sigh.

This is what I mean about talking about stuff when you don't know what you are talking about. Caramon and Sturm both had their HP errata'd in DL5. The numbers you are using are wrong. Which you would know if you actually used the modules. Which I have run multiple times over the years. Why on earth has it already breathed on them twince in the Plaza of Death? Any PC's worth anything have killed Khisanth before it's even taken a turn. 64 points of damage with 5 fighter types? Not really too difficult.

But, I guess my actual play experience just pales before your 30 second reading from Anyflip.

Again, it's really, really frustrating to have to constantly deal with this. Note, to be fair, we did do the "breath weapons deal current HP" damage rule. Which would make the fight considerably easier. Then again, I also ran this in 2e (as well as running it in 1e) which mean that the 6th level PC's obliterated Khisanth in the first round. Never minding that by this point, Sturm (or someone) should have the double damage against dragons two handed sword. 6d6 damage on a hit makes pretty short work of something with 64 HP.
What are they going to do when she breathes from the air in the plaza of death, jump really high? Yell at it?

Also, the individual modules which I had an also ran, are every bit as valid as some errata'd modules put out later on. In that module it says she flies around breathing on the group twice.

Why do you assume they are all winning initiative? And yes, if you had it do current hit point damage, it would make it MUCH easier. Doing max damage is why dragons were so fearsome in 1e. Take that away and they are not nearly as dangerous.

Edit: I looked at the errata by the way. 3 of the 8 still die whether they save or not and the other 5 die if they fail the save. The plaza of death still says two breaths before flying away and the dragon is in total darkness, so they can't see where in the air it's at in any case. The dragon ain't dying there. The PCs are.

I love how they upped Tasslehoff's hit points from 15 to 16. That will help. :P

Goldmoon and Raistlin have no increase. The only really sizable improvement was for Sturm who went from 29 to 49 hit points, so he still has a 60% chance of dying instantly.
 
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While I do disagree with you on a number of things, this is one that I'm not actually too concerned about. I mean, they've been trying to link video game play to anti-social behaviour for most of my life, and it's never actually shown any correlation. The notion that RPG's could be linked in this manner is very likely in the same barrel.
Would you say that it is mistaken to have any moral concerns at all for TTRPG? Setting this example aside, can you picture any content that you would be concerned about?

(I'm not asking what that content might be, only whether you see it as a possibility?)
 

Considering the thousands of NPCs I've mowed down in video games and that study after study has shown no ill effect, I'm not too concerned either.
Upthread you say that you prefer not to use the minions mechanic. From what you wrote that is motivated by concern that "the dichotomy of the "low level" ogre having over a hundred HP vs an ogre with far better AC and hits for far more damage having 1 HP is incongruous". I find that concern easy to understand, but others have argued that it is unjustified.

Do you feel preferences ought to be limited to such concerns, or would it be okay for posters to disfavour mechanics out of moral concerns, whether or not other posters argue they are unjustified?
 

Upthread you say that you prefer not to use the minions mechanic. From what you wrote that is motivated by concern that "the dichotomy of the "low level" ogre having over a hundred HP vs an ogre with far better AC and hits for far more damage having 1 HP is incongruous". I find that concern easy to understand, but others have argued that it is unjustified.

Do you feel preferences ought to be limited to such concerns, or would it be okay for posters to disfavour mechanics out of moral concerns, whether or not other posters argue they are unjustified?
Morality isn't generally something we think of as a matter of personal preference.

If you believe something is immoral, then you believe people doing that thing are behaving immorally and should change their behaviour -- you are casting judgement.

If you present something as just a matter of personal preference, then it is assumed you are not ascribing moral or ethical value to the behaviour.

Edit: Of course it is OK to have concerns on moral grounds, but don't expect people to simply accept suggestions that their gaming preferences might be immoral without a very convincing argument.
 
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Would you say that it is mistaken to have any moral concerns at all for TTRPG? Setting this example aside, can you picture any content that you would be concerned about?

(I'm not asking what that content might be, only whether you see it as a possibility?)
There is a world of ignored middle you seem to be intent on glossing over.
 

What are they going to do when she breathes from the air in the plaza of death, jump really high? Yell at it?

Also, the individual modules which I had an also ran, are every bit as valid as some errata'd modules put out later on. In that module it says she flies around breathing on the group twice.

Why do you assume they are all winning initiative? And yes, if you had it do current hit point damage, it would make it MUCH easier. Doing max damage is why dragons were so fearsome in 1e. Take that away and they are not nearly as dangerous.

Edit: I looked at the errata by the way. 3 of the 8 still die whether they save or not and the other 5 die if they fail the save. The plaza of death still says two breaths before flying away and the dragon is in total darkness, so they can't see where in the air it's at in any case. The dragon ain't dying there. The PCs are.

I love how they upped Tasslehoff's hit points from 15 to 16. That will help. :P

Goldmoon and Raistlin have no increase. The only really sizable improvement was for Sturm who went from 29 to 49 hit points, so he still has a 60% chance of dying instantly.
Wow.

Talk about cherry picking. Khisanth takes 1 full round to gain altitude in the first round of Plaza of Death. It then spends two rounds on Sleep and Magic Missile spells. So, the PC's have three rounds to scatter and find cover before breath attacks come - 3 rounds of 10 arrow attacks each round I might add.

Never minding that the PC's have absolutely no reason to go here. They can enter the dungeon from a different location.
 

Would you say that it is mistaken to have any moral concerns at all for TTRPG? Setting this example aside, can you picture any content that you would be concerned about?

(I'm not asking what that content might be, only whether you see it as a possibility?)
I'm not @Hussar
But generally speaking for my table, if a PC were to engage in an immoral activity within the game - it would have in-game consequences. It doesn't make its way into the real world and there is not concern for it occuring in the real world.
The two most recent immoral acts within our fiction that I can think of are:

1. Character made a deal with a devil to give up his firstborn by providing his seed to a tiefling.
The contract was then signed by himself and the devil on a damned wretch (BG: DiA)

2. Character who is a bugbear with the backstory of a being an escaped long-term illithid thrall, who does not value life and has rather selfish-survival tendencies, stabbed a small body encased in a web-cocoon (unfortunate halfling adventurer).
This was a cold dispassionate gesture by the character who has survived on his own for a while but has recently joined an adventuring party. I suspect to see character growth.

At this stage in our roleplaying career if a character does something reprehensible, the table is allowed to question it if it doesn't already make sense in the fiction (Background, Story so Far, Traits/Bonds/Flaws).

From a mechanical representation of creatures of fantasy I am not of the opinion that mechanical content can be immoral.
And I dare say for me, even from a fictional content.
I'm more interested in the logic of how the setting works - whether it be magic, powerful creatures, more intelligent creatures, undead, slavery...etc

In VtM humans are essentially lesser beings (blood dolls, servants etc) and that vampires (and supernatural creatures) have had a major role to play in mankind's history. That is the premise you accept when you play the game and the opportunity exists where your character is going perform reprehensible acts (this includes feeding on victims which is a form of R)

So at the top of my head I cannot picture content that I would be concerned about, but then again I do not consider myself well versed in the many types of games that currently exist. I haven't seen anything that has given me pause for concern.
 
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Morality isn't generally something we think of as a matter of personal preference.
Upthread I proposed that personal preferences were founded on differences in sensitivities or tolerances. For example, if I am insensitive to the difference in flavour and texture between apples and pears I am unlikely to prefer one or the other (or at least, it becomes very unclear what my grounds for that is so long as I sincerely don't discern any difference between them.)

Not only do we generally think of people as having different levels of sensitivity to moral subjects, we also think of them as having different lists of subjects of morality. For example, for me it might not be a moral matter to invoke a deity's name in cussing, but to someone else it might be.

If you believe something is immoral, then you believe people doing that thing are behaving immorally and should change their behaviour -- you are casting judgement.
I see your point in respect of the normative applications of morality; although that was not my intent and no one replied to me expressing a feeling of judgement as an objection. (That's not to say it didn't motivate their replies.) Posters generally framed their objections around not seeing any risk of exporting immorality from the game.

I wrote upthread that I believed play had a separateness from real life, so that behaviour that could seem immoral in real life might not do so in play. However, I did caveat that by saying that this likely relies on some consciousness and perhaps intentionality about that separateness. The article I linked above about DitV explores this sort of thing.

This separateness applies to moral judgement: I can hold mass slaughter to be immoral in the real world and judge those who are indifferent to or promote it without applying the same judgement to play. And this is on the same grounds others have raised for separating immoral action in fiction from real life. (Meaning that if it is mistaken, they too are mistaken.)

If you present something as just a matter of personal preference, then it is assumed you are not ascribing moral or ethical value to the behaviour.
Why should that be true in the context of pretences we entertain as part of playing a game? Suppose I believe that in the real world it is immoral to X, and I prefer in game not to entertain X. Another player feels better able to uphold a separateness between game and real world, so even though they agree it is immoral to X, they are willing to entertain it in their play. Those sorts of differences are part of what motivates safety tools now incorporated into many TTRPGs.

To put it plainly, if you believe that there is a separateness between play and our real world, so that doing X which would be immoral in our real world is not immoral in play, then desiring not to do X in play can indeed be a matter of personal preference.

Edit: Of course it is OK to have concerns on moral grounds, but don't expect people to simply accept suggestions that their gaming preferences might be immoral without a very convincing argument.
I think someone could say that it is indeed immoral to entertain mass slaughter in the real world, but not immoral to do so in game play, due to the separateness or magic circle of play. I imagine, but am perhaps mistaken, that there are moral subjects most folk here would feel compunction about incorporating in their play.

@AlViking disfavours minion mechanics on grounds that matter to them, and they have said that they do not impose that on others. I can disfavour minion mechanics on other grounds without imposing that on others. There is nothing untoward about either of us explaining our grounds just in case others find on reflection they share them.
 
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So at the top of my head I cannot picture content that I would be concerned about, but then again I do not consider myself well versed in the many types of games that currently exist. I haven't seen anything that has given me pause for concern.
I strongly suspect game mechanics could be written to promote narratives that are surely repugnant to folk here, but I'd prefer not to list those out.
 

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