D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[AnotherGuy]

I strongly suspect game mechanics could be written to promote narratives that are surely repugnant to folk here, but I'd prefer not to list those out.

Your question to @Hussar was not phrased if someone else would find things offensive. That is a shifting of goal posts.

 

[SableWyvern]

@clearstream, you asked if it is "okay for posters to disfavour mechanics out of moral concerns" and did so in a fashion that suggests you believe that a moral concern is equivalent to a simple difference in taste where there is no moral component.

I responded to say that forming an opinion on a mechanic is based on moral concerns is, by definition, making moral judgements and thus it is something you should do carefully (especially if you want to voice the opinion that it's a matter of morality). I also indicated that I don't believe that moral judgements should be treated the same way as individual preferences with no meaningful moral component.

You've then written a huge post pointing out that it's possible to dislike a mechanic for reasons of personal preference that aren't based on morality, but I have no idea what the relevance of all this is, as I was specifically and only responding to your question about the validity of moral concerns.

@AlViking disfavours minion mechanics on grounds that matter to them, and they have said that they do not impose that on others. I can disfavour minion mechanics on other grounds without imposing that on others. There is nothing untoward about either of us explaining our grounds just in case others find on reflection they share them.

When you state that your grounds for disliking a mechanic are moral concerns, you are not merely sharing a preference. You are also suggesting that people who do not share your concerns, and who use the morally concerning mechanic, are behaving immorally.

Edit: If you genuinely believe it is morally questionable to use a given mechanic, then by all means stick to your guns. But if you do actually believe it's a moral issue, don't pretend that it's just a preference like any other or act surprised when those who disagree with you do so strongly.

It's also worth keeping in mind that people preaching moral issues with gaming have a proud tradition going all the way back to the Satanic Panic, BADD and Chick in the 80s, through to Collective Shout currently, all claiming to be protecting us from violence, degeneracy and Satan, so you are going to face a lot of skepticism unless you have some really compelling arguments.

 

[clearstream]

Your question to @Hussar was not phrased if someone else would find things offensive. That is a shifting of goal posts.

I might have misunderstood what you wrote. When you said

"So at the top of my head I cannot picture content that I would be concerned about, but then again I do not consider myself well versed in the many types of games that currently exist. I haven't seen anything that has given me pause for concern."​

I took the part I bolded to be a broad claim. Recollecting that upthread I asked posters if they could picture anything that would give them pause for concern, I understood you to be saying that nothing came to mind.

I'm not aiming to move any goal posts, so if you mean that in some narrower sense then I would like to ask you the same question but being clearer I mean it broadly: can you picture game mechanics that would give you pause for concern?

 

[AlViking]

Upthread you say that you prefer not to use the minions mechanic. From what you wrote that is motivated by concern that "the dichotomy of the "low level" ogre having over a hundred HP vs an ogre with far better AC and hits for far more damage having 1 HP is incongruous". I find that concern easy to understand, but others have argued that it is unjustified.

Do you feel preferences ought to be limited to such concerns, or would it be okay for posters to disfavour mechanics out of moral concerns, whether or not other posters argue they are unjustified?

People have been claiming that various things are immoral or decadent forever. Comic books were corrupting our youth, then it was Rock and Roll, TV, movies, video games.

So when you phrase your personal opinion as a moral issue it carries less weight. Its up to each individual and each table to draw the line. I simply don't see any reason to agree with your personal preference.

 

[kermit4karate]

I cut my TTRPG (then just called RPG) teeth in the '80s and '90s. Back then, there wasn't the rule rigidity and militarism with regard to rule following there is now. DMs were the lawmen, and their word was god.

A player, nor a page in a rulebook, didn't decide how a spell worked. The DM did, and they could change it any time they wanted to -- all in the interest of gameplay. If the players enjoyed the resulting gameplay, they returned to play more. It was really quite effective and simple. If players are having fun, they'll keep returning to the table, core rulebooks be damned.

 

[TwoSix]

I cut my TTRPG (then just called RPG) teeth in the '80s and '90s. Back then, there wasn't the rule rigidity and militarism with regard to rule following there is now. DMs were the lawmen, and their word was god.

A player, nor a page in a rulebook, didn't decide how a spell worked. The DM did, and they could change it any time they wanted to -- all in the interest of gameplay. If the players enjoyed the resulting gameplay, they returned to play more. It was really quite effective and simple. If players are having fun, they'll keep returning to the table, core rulebooks be damned.

That is true, but there are number of us who look back on that period with more than a little disdain.

 

[kermit4karate]

That is true, but there are number of us who look back on that period with more than a little disdain.

Then I would say that you mustn't have been playing in, or DMing, games you enjoyed, because I'm still close with the same group of people I was DMing games for 30 years ago. Perhaps as a consequence of the fun we had playing RPGs back then, we became lifelong friends.

See I think gamers had the right idea back then and something has since been lost, but I can already hear the accusations of "rose-colored glasses." Sure... OK, keep tellin' yerself that.

 

[Maxperson]

Wow.

Talk about cherry picking. Khisanth takes 1 full round to gain altitude in the first round of Plaza of Death. It then spends two rounds on Sleep and Magic Missile spells. So, the PC's have three rounds to scatter and find cover before breath attacks come - 3 rounds of 10 arrow attacks each round I might add.

Never minding that the PC's have absolutely no reason to go here. They can enter the dungeon from a different location.

Scatter and cover for what? They don't know anything about dragons. And why on Earth would a smart, ancient black dragon act so stupidly and cast sleep and magic missiles instead of breathing? In any case, all they've seen is a dragon cast a useless sleep spell, and a single magic missile with a few missiles. Not knowing anything about breath weapons and seeing it act so ineffectually, is why Riverwind died and why PCs would die.

As for why they would go through the plaza, the temple of Mishakal, the only intact building they can see is across it. Adventurers love oddities like "the only intact building."

 

[AnotherGuy]

Then I would say that you mustn't have been playing in, or DMing, games you enjoyed, because I'm still close with the same group of people I was DMing games for 30 years ago. Perhaps as a consequence of the fun we had playing RPGs back then, we became lifelong friends.

People often times look back in disdain or regret because perhaps in 30-40 years they have learned how do GM better, that mistakes were made back then, even while they were having fun with friends.

See I think gamers had the right idea back then and something has since been lost (snip)

Something will always be lost when you change your playstyle. The question is, is it better for you and your table?

 

[TwoSix]

Then I would say that you mustn't have been playing in, or DMing, games you enjoyed, because I'm still close with the same group of people I was DMing games for 30 years ago. Perhaps as a consequence of the fun we had playing RPGs back then, we became lifelong friends.

See I think gamers had the right idea back then and something has since been lost, but I can already hear the accusations of "rose-colored glasses." Sure... OK, keep tellin' yerself that.

What, you’ve never enjoyed a bad movie?

I enjoyed the group and the games, but I was a teenager. I no longer have interest in games with that level of DM force.