D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Micah Sweet]

Anybody can be killed with a single gunshot.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Anybody can be killed with a single gunshot.

Anybody can be killed by any serious weapon strike, really. The whole D&D hit point structure (at least as it applies for human-like entities) is a fictional convention and high order combat pacing abstraction.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Anybody can be killed by any serious weapon strike, really. The whole D&D hit point structure (at least as it applies for human-like entities) is a fictional convention and high order combat pacing abstraction.

And the minion rules are even more so.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I think that's not actually assuming the "in-fiction" part there; its just a typical fictional convention for that kind of fiction, and that opponent is, if anything, presented as dangerous and going down that fast is a bit of a surprise (because most likely it doesn't represent anything in-fiction).

Please help me to understand how my example is not an "in-fiction" representative of a minion?

He appears like any other tough foe that our protagonist encounters and no doubt could do alot of damage if he were to attack...but is oddly easy to dispatch in the narrative because that's what the scene called for (as well as the illness).

That's EXACTLY one of the things that the minion mechanics are trying to accomplish in the ruleset.

 

[Thomas Shey]

And the minion rules are even more so.

Still kind of comes across as swallowing the whale and choking at the minnow when virtually every humanoid opponent you fight after the first level of the game is a narrative conceit, just because minions are a different narrative conceit.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Please help me to understand how my example is not an "in-fiction" representative of a minion?

Because "in fiction" (that is to say, in the theoretical reality of the world as perceived by characters in it) the minions aren't theoretically more brittle than anyone else including in many cases the heroes; it works that way because they serve different narrative needs but those aren't inside the fiction, they're beyond it.

I suspect you're using that sort of meta purpose as "within the fiction" but I can pretty much promise you that's not how the people you are responding to are using it, so you're talking at crosspurposes.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Because "in fiction" (that is to say, in the theoretical reality of the world as perceived by characters in it) the minions aren't theoretically more brittle than anyone else including in many cases the heroes; it works that way because they serve different narrative needs but those aren't inside the fiction, they're beyond it.

I suspect you're using that sort of meta purpose as "within the fiction" but I can pretty much promise you that's not how the people you are responding to are using it, so you're talking at crosspurposes.

When we are discussing minions (or any other monster role) as per 4e we are necessarily discussing two levels of reality applied to the same thing....the narrative creature AND the mechanical framework they work under in the game.

My example exactly show a minion, as per the mechanics of 4e, in an existing piece of fiction, which is what someone asked the readers of this thread to provide.

If you feel that something different was requested because of your definition of in-fiction then please explain to me what traits you feel need apply to a legitimate example.

 

[Thomas Shey]

When we are discussing minions (or any other monster role) as per 4e we are necessarily discussing two levels of reality applied to the same thing....the narrative creature AND the mechanical framework they work under in the game.

And the people you're responding to disagree with that "necessarily". I don't think that's that complicated.

My example exactly show a minion, as per the mechanics of 4e, in an existing piece of fiction, which is what someone asked the readers of this thread to provide.

If you feel that something different was requested because of your definition of in-fiction then please explain to me what traits you feel need apply to a legitimate example.

Talk to the people who have an issue here. I'm personally fine with minions/mooks; if I wasn't, I wouldn't be running 13th Age.. But that doesn't mean I can't realize you're working on a different premise than the people you're responding to and they aren't required to follow you there.

 

[gban007]

@JiffyPopTart my attempt to reply to your message didnt go well, so tagging you instead sorry.
For this example to hold true, I think we would need to see other foes in the movie also shot in lethal location but not killed. There were other foes he had to work harder for, due to not being able to shoot them, but was there anything in fiction to suggest one person could be shot to death but another not. We also have the propeller scene, is there in fiction possibility that going into the propeller would kill some foes, but not others, or that if that foe was shot he would have shrugged off but only propeller would have got him. At times Indiana was certainly trying to get the gun suggesting he thought it would take the guy down as effectively as the sword guy.
I think that is where disconnect is for @Micah Sweet though he can correct me if wrong.

Similar to Thomas I dont have a problem with minions allowing for that narrative sort of difference in play, but I can see where there is potential disconnect between the in fiction happening and the mechanics supporting the narrative.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Still kind of comes across as swallowing the whale and choking at the minnow when virtually every humanoid opponent you fight after the first level of the game is a narrative conceit, just because minions are a different narrative conceit.

Give me an example other that dead horse known as hit points, and we'll talk.