Rant: Why must thing always be obvious in D&D?

[conanb]

I think the problem here is the definition of "Major" deity in the Forgotten Realms setting. I don't think this refers to their overall amount of worship as it does to their power and standing in the heirarchy of the gods. Bane is a major deity in FR but I wouldn't say that most civilized places would have churches or open shrines to him unless those places were inherently evil. Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarium would worship him, but good luck finding a church or shrine supporting him in any of the Dalelands or Cormyr. I think it's important to take into account geography and the religion. A religion check would tell the player if what they worshipped should be open or secret where they are. If it's secret, then he should know to hide his holy symbol and know that finding the local church isn't going to be that easy. He's going to have to ask around and prove that he's a true believer to the locals. Remember he's an outsider. If you think that this is an underground church due to what they percieve as persecution their going to be very careful about trusting someone they don't know. He might have to earn their trust first by doing something before being allowed access, or prove his truth by taking some sort of ritual or test. I don't think that when a deity is described as Major that they are instantly worshipped everywhere. Geography is the question, where are they? Shar in the underdark is going to have temples everywhere, in contrast to Suzail where I think she would be banned and have a hidden temple or shrine where only the locals worship at.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The question is does being a follower of a god mean that you're a member of an organisation? People can follow gods in their own unique way, without being part of a religion or cult. You could have learned about a faith from written material only and had no contact with other adherents.

 

[Glyfair]

The question is does being a follower of a god mean that you're a member of an organisation? People can follow gods in their own unique way, without being part of a religion or cult. You could have learned about a faith from written material only and no contact with other adherents.

Isn't that for the player to decide (or perhaps the DM & player in consultation)? I don't see that as something for DM fiat...during play.

 

[Delta]

"A halfling child wanders towards you in the forest, appearing lost."
"Well, we'll approach the child and ask what's the matter"
"There's a big SQUISH sound when your whole party is flattened under the childs heel when he walks over you, not even noticing you."
"Whoah?"
"Halflings are mountainsized in my campaign! Teaches you to make assumptions about MY game, NYAH-NYAH-NYAH!"

ROTFL. Great stuff.

 

[conanb]

Isn't that for the player to decide (or perhaps the DM & player in consultation)? I don't see that as something for DM fiat...during play.

This goes back to character background. If he's making it up on the fly then DM can overrule. I would say "Look let's take a break, and you write up the background of your character." If he's part of an organization then he is going to have to play as part of an organization, which means all the internal politics, orders, etc that comes from being in an organized religion. I would also ask where this player wants to explore with his character, such as his issues with his faith or with questions about church leadership. Unless he's just a power gamer, then I feel it necessary to do what I can to keep the game balanced. Actually, I would really ask him to find another game or go play WOW.

 

[Gez]

"A band of centaur approaches cautiously, weapons at the ready."
"Hey don't worry guys, the Monster Manual says they are chaotic good and love elves and I'm an elf. What do you mean they're charging? Charging at what? What did I do - OW MY HIT POINTS!"

"Yeah, they love elves, and you're about to find out how..."

Then whip up F.A.T.A.L. and make them roll up various orifice diameter for their characters.

Scream and bleed guaranteed.

 

[Celebrim]

There are basic problems with the assumptions of both the DM and player here:

With the PC:
1) As a player, you have no right to challenge DM authority even if the information you are being provided seems illogical too you. Your first assumption should always be, "The DM has a good reason for this, but its not been revealed yet." And even if the DM doesn't have what strikes you as a good reason, its his campaign.
2) The player is out of character. The player is arguing with the DM over the metagame. None of these problems would have come up if the player stayed in character and tried to find a temple of Shar through in character means. Instead, the player tried to force the DM to give him a temple of Shar by out of game means, and naturally a conflict occured.
3) The player did not phrase his requests to the DM as a question, but rather as implicit demands. He's not trying to figure out how the campaign world works and then work within the framework. He's struggling to gain control over how the campaign world works by manipulating the framework. If the player approached the question of, 'Where are the temples of Shar?', 'How do I find a temple of Shar?', or even 'Where is the nearest temple of Shar?', then the onus is placed on the DM to give the player a means of resolution. Instead, the player chose to demand a particular type of resolution - one that would make no in game demands on him.

On the part of the DM:
1) Major issues regarding the organization of the religion should have been addressed at the time of character creation. A player should begin play knowing basically what his character should know in order to be his character. That means that if a player has ranks in Know (Local), and Know (Religion), that you give him some overview and briefing and answer questions before play - especially if your campaign is going to not rely on published cannon. Your Centaurs may be blood thirsty cannibals, but if that is so, the first time that a character with Know (Arcane) discovers this should not be when he gets hit by an arrow. At the very least, you should have the characters roll knowledge checks as soon as they see centaurs. Now, if a character fails a know check (either from luck or lack of ranks) if they insist on acting on meta-game information that isn't applicable to your campaign, they get what they deserve. But not providing in game information to a character that is in character is bad DMing.

 

[Numion]

In a normal* D&D campaign the characters usually cannot throw a rock without hitting a secret cult member. They're the main subject matter in about 35-60% of adventures. So I think it would be a little strange to me if the DM put on the breaks when I actually wanted to find one.

As a DM I would let the player find the cult. In a small gesture of ratbastardness I would make the cult really hardcore evil, though - so that the PC probably wouldn't want to fully partake in ceremonies.

Of course, this could've been avoided if the player had okayed the choice fully, and also synced his expectations with the DM.

* whatever that means

 

[Mallus]

To sum up:

DM's, don't be a d*ick when challenging your players.

 

[Umbran]

Folks,

I know sometimes they seem like clear analogies to use, but please don't include real-world political or religious issues as part of your discussion. It may seem innocuous now, but topic drift can turn things quite nasty.

Thanks. If you have any questions about this, please take 'em to e-mail. Addresses for the mods are in a post stickied to the top of the Meta forum