Rant: Why must thing always be obvious in D&D?

[Faraer]

- player demands that since Shar is a "major" deity (strongest) there must be lots of temples

There aren't: few small towns have temples to Shar, though large ones will have shrines or at least cells of worshippers. How easily the character could find and get help from such depends on his or her status in her church.

But the above assumption (though not demand!) is understandable because some sources suggest that the rank of gods is solely dependent on their worship. It isn't, and Shar is a prime example: she has far narrower appeal and fewer worshippers than greater gods like Chauntea or Tempus, or likely even lesser gods like Waukeen.

We can probably agree it would have been better for DM and player to discuss such things and get on the same page before the campaign starts.

Forgotten Realms is different in that the gods do not penalize you for making 'bribes' to other gods; that is NOT worship.

They don't penalize you for worshipping other gods either; everyone worships many gods except for the most fanatical and obsessive priests.

Given that FR is a setting with high deity intervention, it's probably appropriate for the PC to have a dream that he should talk with so and so about hooking up with the local Shar-ites.

The Realms is not a setting with high deity intervention, and only an extremely favoured divine servant would receive dreams about something so minor (getting help and equipment).

 

[Shadeydm]

There are basic problems with the assumptions of both the DM and player here:

With the PC:
1) As a player, you have no right to challenge DM authority even if the information you are being provided seems illogical too you. Your first assumption should always be, "The DM has a good reason for this, but its not been revealed yet." And even if the DM doesn't have what strikes you as a good reason, its his campaign.
2) The player is out of character. The player is arguing with the DM over the metagame. None of these problems would have come up if the player stayed in character and tried to find a temple of Shar through in character means. Instead, the player tried to force the DM to give him a temple of Shar by out of game means, and naturally a conflict occured.
3) The player did not phrase his requests to the DM as a question, but rather as implicit demands. He's not trying to figure out how the campaign world works and then work within the framework. He's struggling to gain control over how the campaign world works by manipulating the framework. If the player approached the question of, 'Where are the temples of Shar?', 'How do I find a temple of Shar?', or even 'Where is the nearest temple of Shar?', then the onus is placed on the DM to give the player a means of resolution. Instead, the player chose to demand a particular type of resolution - one that would make no in game demands on him.

On the part of the DM:
1) Major issues regarding the organization of the religion should have been addressed at the time of character creation. A player should begin play knowing basically what his character should know in order to be his character. That means that if a player has ranks in Know (Local), and Know (Religion), that you give him some overview and briefing and answer questions before play - especially if your campaign is going to not rely on published cannon. Your Centaurs may be blood thirsty cannibals, but if that is so, the first time that a character with Know (Arcane) discovers this should not be when he gets hit by an arrow. At the very least, you should have the characters roll knowledge checks as soon as they see centaurs. Now, if a character fails a know check (either from luck or lack of ranks) if they insist on acting on meta-game information that isn't applicable to your campaign, they get what they deserve. But not providing in game information to a character that is in character is bad DMing.

Exactly!

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Although there are stupid players (and stupid DMs; it's not as if these categories are mutually exclusive), most DM/player miscommunications are six of one, half dozen of the other. What is obvious to one person is obscure to another, and frankly, what would be obvious to one person on one day is obscure on another. Realistically, in these cases it's the DM's responsibility to make the extra effort to see how things look to the player and talk him through the steps necessary to see how they look to the DM. Why? Same reason it's the big sister's job to look after the little sister. It's just the way things are, and you can accept it, or you can picket the universe for being unfair - it makes no practical difference to how the universe is set up.

The DM has the power and knows his vision of the setting, but not how that vision got filtered through to the players. The player has (in this case) access to setting books but not to the inside of the DM's head. When they fail to read each other's minds, they can get mad at each other all they want, but if the DM doesn't step up to the plate, grasp the player's point of view, and make his own position as clear as possible, there isn't going to be any game because the player's going to walk.

I endorse everything that Peni says....

Seriously, DMs who think that their personal assumptions have magicly made it through to the players are a lot more annoying than a player who assumes that if the DM let him worship a given diety that he won't be lynched for doing so. (and I won't even bother with the bait and switch "ha ha, your character doesn't know anything about the world he lives in" silliness).

For the OP:

- player runs a character follower of Shar (FR evil major deity)

-DM says "OK, but just so you know, Shar is a major god within the pantheon, but open worship is rare. You would have been educated in secret, and may not always be able to find fellow worshipers. If you are willing to put a point into Know Religion cross class, you will recognize markers and subtle conversation clues Shar followers use to find each other...

Pretty simple, really.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Given that there is probably something that you might vaguely call a "temple" hidden somewhere in a major city

There are no temples of a certain real world religion in my city, despite it being a major world religion.

The player is being unreasonable. We're talking about a religion here, not a Starbucks or a Gap store; they aren't necessarily everywhere, even if they're major.

 

[Mallus]

We're talking about a religion here, not a Starbucks or a Gap store...

We're talking about a religion in the context of a D&D game presumably set in the Forgotten Realms. Do you want that cure potion venti or grande?

 

[Nifft]

topic drift can turn things quite nasty.

Indeed, indeed.

I have no idea what the original offensive example was, but I'm now inspired to add the Elves of the Quibhaala to my game -- a secret society of Elves bent on entropic doom for the universe, using Truenaming and cookies as their chief weapons.

Cheers, -- N

 

[an_idol_mind]

Honestly, this whole thing sounds like a player/DM problem, not a problem of the game itself.

 

[HellHound]

Think of WHFRP for an example of how this is handled:

The four major chaos gods are all incredibly powerful gods with innumerable followers, yet actually finding a single or a group of followers is a very daunting task, even for another follower of the same ruinous power. Because worship is outlawed, existing worshipers and cells of same maintain strong defenses against incursion from witch hunters and other forces that hate them - some of which would be more than willing to infiltrate their ranks pretending to be followers themselves.

 

[Mallus]

Think of WHFRP for an example of how this is handled:

The Warhmammer setting operates under a vastly different set of assumptions than the Forgotten Realms.

 

[wolff96]

The Warhmammer setting operates under a vastly different set of assumptions than the Forgotten Realms.

I'd agree in general, but do you really think his suggestion about handling the goddess of secrets, darkness, and the night like the followers of the ruinous powers is that far out into left field?

Sure it wouldn't make much sense if we were even discussing someone like the Zhentarim, but followers of SHAR?

I'm with most of the posters on this thread. Shar is the best deity I can think of out of the entire FR pantheon to have distributed networks of followers, each secret and in hiding, the leader of each cell knowing one other cell at best. Especially since Shar has such a rivalry with her sister, who is allied with so many good deities...