Rapier + Dagger and Combat Expertise

[ibonet]

Hi all,

I'm thinking of a DEX fighter based on rapier in the main hand, for attack, and dagger in the off hand, for defense. I'm not now concerned about fighter or swashbuckler char's. Both ways have their pro's and con's...What I need advice now is about the use of combat expertise feat.

As I said before, main hand will held a rapier to attack, and a dagger in the off hand to defend. In terms of game, I take Two Weapon Fighting (only once, with on attack with off hand is enough, so improved and greater path is over...) and so, apply a -2 penalty in every attack. Besides I take Combat expertise to enhance AC in detrment of bonus attack.

The question now is, I focus main hand in attack, and off hand in defense. Is logical to apply the penalty to attack only to the off hand, and apply AC bonus to all attacks received? Is balanced? is munchin? I feel that responds to the flavour of that style of fighting (low armour, but high AC, good attack bonus...)

Alternatives could be to apply penalty only to the dagger attack and aply bonus to AC only against one attack. Or house rule a new feat, or a swashbuckler nerw character ability...

What do you think of that' Have tou thought of that before?

Thanks in advanced for any advice...

 

[Dandu]

Benefit
When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

You cannot apply the penalty to one weapon only.

Alternatives:
The Defending enchantment on your dagger so that you can turn its enchantment bonus into a dodge bonus to your AC.

The Two Weapon Defense feat. The Complete Warrior offers the Improved Two Weapon Defense and Greater Two Weapon Defense feats.

The 3.0 Off-Hand Parry feat allows you to sacrifice all of your off-hand attacks for a +2 dodge bonus to AC.

Holding the dagger in your off hand as you attack solely with your rapier, applying a -2 bonus to your attack roll via Combat Expertise and saying that the resulting bonus to AC comes from your dagger.

Other advice:
Have you considered the following feats?
Two Weapon Rend
Robiliar's Gambit
Karmic Strike

 

[Empirate]

Since there's not really a parrying mechanism in D&D, 'only using the dagger to defend' must remain pure flavor from a rules standpoint. You either attack with only one weapon, taking no penalty on attacks, but not gaining AC bonus either, or you attack with both weapons (at a -2 penalty), which is really the only point to two-weapon fighting.

Things to look at with your favored style of fighting:

Crescent Moon Style allows you to make a free disarm attempt if you hit with both a sword and a dagger in the same round. Not as good as High Sword Low Axe, but it's there.

The Two-Weapon Defense tree gives nice AC bonuses when using two weapons to fight defensively (half the bonuses when fighting normally with two weapons, so, meh!). If your DM is OK with Combat Expertise counting as fighting defensively, this might come in handy. You trade a lot of feats for an AC bonus, though.

Deadly Defense gives a +1d6 damage bonus with finessable weapons when fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise.

Two-Weapon Pounce allows two attacks on a charge, but is strictly worse than Lion Totem Barbarian's pounce ability. If you don't want to dip Barbarian, this feat might be interesting.

Two-Weapon Rend ups your damage output if you hit with both weapons. Probably not really worth it.

There's also Twin Sword Style, which grants a +2 shield bonus when using a particular weapon combination (which rapier+dagger qualifies for, iirc), but only against a single opponent.


NOTE: None of these feats really delivers, in my opinion. Several of them should have been rolled into one, most are simply a little on the weak side. But flavor can be found here, if you're looking for that.

The only way to make TWF good is getting tons of bonus damage (sneak attack, skirmish, dragonfire inspiration, multiple stats to damage like from Swashbuckler and the Shadow Blade feat, etc.) that applies to every attack. You might also want to have a look at the Tome of Battle stuff, especially Tiger Claw maneuvers!

 

[Dandu]

Since there's not really a parrying mechanism in D&D

Psst, check out the post above your's.

 

[Empirate]

Psst, check out the post above your's.

You edited your post while I was typing...

 

[Grogg of the North]

Another option would be to use the feat Pin Shield. Give up your off-hand attacks to cause your opponent to lose the benefit of their shield.

Also, bucklers used to be a popular (historically) for defense. If I recall correctly, they eventually fell out of use and using a short blade in the off hand replaced them.

 

[Herzog]

You could, of course.... Use the rules for a light shield with shield spikes, and DESCRIBE it as a dagger. (assuming your DM would allow this.)

 

[ibonet]

Thank you all for your comments.

I've thought as well in the 'Defense' Magical property; it seems that the path "two weapon defense" is a good (only?) option... Off Hand Parry seems a good idea, as well.

About the sources of damage, I've thought as well in lots of AoO through Robilar's Gambit, or lots of Criticals through Keen + Telling Blow (thinking in a Swashbuckler + Daring Ourtlaw...).

Further opinions?

 

[Wyvernhand]

There is a swashbuckler alt class feature in called Shield of Blades that might be of some interest to you.

Edit: it's in the PHBII, iirc

 

[Dandu]

I've thought as well in the 'Defense' Magical property; it seems that the path "two weapon defense" is a good (only?) option... Off Hand Parry seems a good idea, as well.

It is good for your concept, but the feats themselves aren't considered very good.

About the sources of damage, I've thought as well in lots of AoO through Robilar's Gambit

Get an item which gives you miss chance like a Minor Cloak of Displacement so you don't die.

or lots of Criticals through Keen + Telling Blow (thinking in a Swashbuckler + Daring Ourtlaw...).

Craven is also good for sneak attack damage. The bonus damage it grants is multiplied on a critical.

Now, you may notice that the feat investment here is HUGE. That is one of the many problems with the two weapon fighting style.