Rate Avatar (James Cameron)

[catsclaw227]

I don't. I care that it was a lazy retelling of other stories. If you're going to spend a gazillion dollars, at least hire good writers and listen to them.

OK, that's fair.

That's exactly what I'm doing. I did so in the theater by deliberately shunting my brain away from the plot holes and what not. But I'm not in the theater now. So I shall strive for happiness by asking for better movies in the future.

I can't do that by claiming this was a great film.

I know this is just anecdotal, but of all the people I know that saw the movie (at least 20), only one had to shunt their brain away from plot holes as you did. Everyone else just enjoyed it, admitting to some holes but not caring.

It's possible that you are in the minority in your belief about it not being a great film. And what makes it a great film for you may be different that others. Obviously the box-office receipts show that it was a great film for a large group of people.

Already, Hollywood is probably learning the wrong lessons here. They are learning that pretty CGI is more important than good narrative, good acting, or even plot coherence. They are learning that you can recycle the tropes we rejected as a culture a couple decades ago about ethnic differences by slapping a coat of blue body paint on people. They are re-learning that tech is more important than script and pretty visuals will overcome plot holes you can drive an aircraft carrier through.

These are bad lessons. They will create more bad movies than good movies based on the box office receipts and praise heaped upon Avatar. The last couple times this happened we went through cinematic Dark Ages. Middle-budget films are already going the way of the dodo. Let's not hasten that process.

If I may be so bold, the lesson they are learning is that all these things you mentioned above made a ton of cash. The lesson is that film making like Avatar will make you lots of money so you can make more movies like the ones you want and still be OK if they lose money.

I think despite some of the negative things you mentioned, there are some good lessons in the film for young kids. And they don't have anything to do with framing it with "Mighty Whitey and the poor, poor subhuman natives".

(Actually, I didn't get that Mighty Whitey vibe at all. What if Jake Sully had been played by someone like Taye Diggs? You have to understand, I didn't see "color" or race in the Earthlings. So if the crew of the mission had been more ethnically diverse would the Mighty Whitey comment even be valid?)

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I know this is just anecdotal, but of all the people I know that saw the movie (at least 20), only one had to shunt their brain away from plot holes as you did. Everyone else just enjoyed it, admitting to some holes but not caring.

Oh, I admit I might be a picky jerk. I'm not good at effusive praise even when I really, really like something. That might be because I can always think of a way to improve things, even if it's minuscule. I think that's an important drive in society, so I don't squash it.

Everyone I was with enjoyed it more than I did, but I'm not sure that kind of thing holds up under scrutiny. I remember being in a theater for each of the Star Wars prequels, surrounded by people who were eating it up with a spoon and walked out talking about how awesome it was. Many of these people, when consulted 24 hours later, went on to insist that the movie was a steaming pile of excrement and that they hated it.

People are fickle, to say the least.

It's possible that you are in the minority in your belief about it not being a great film. And what makes it a great film for you may be different that others. Obviously the box-office receipts show that it was a great film for a large group of people.

We could seriously debate that. I double dog dare you to take a list of top grossing films and try to find anyone who would accept it as anything like a quality measure. There's a HUGE amount of noise in movie grosses in any case.

(Actually, I didn't get that Mighty Whitey vibe at all. What if Jake Sully had been played by someone like Taye Diggs? You have to understand, I didn't see "color" or race in the Earthlings. So if the crew of the mission had been more ethnically diverse would the Mighty Whitey comment even be valid?)

Yes, but less so.

It would still be the outsider from a fundamentally Western culture showing up and being more awesome than everyone else, which is a little dodgy.

 

[Aeolius]

DVD/Blu-ray sales are sure to skyrocket: Avatar DVD/Blu-ray to include blue alien sex scene

 

[catsclaw227]

Oh, I admit I might be a picky jerk. I'm not good at effusive praise even when I really, really like something. That might be because I can always think of a way to improve things, even if it's minuscule. I think that's an important drive in society, so I don't squash it.

That's good. No need to hold back the emotions or the drive for innovation and improvement.

Everyone I was with enjoyed it more than I did, but I'm not sure that kind of thing holds up under scrutiny. I remember being in a theater for each of the Star Wars prequels, surrounded by people who were eating it up with a spoon and walked out talking about how awesome it was. Many of these people, when consulted 24 hours later, went on to insist that the movie was a steaming pile of excrement and that they hated it.

People are fickle, to say the least.

True, but I haven't had that experience with this movie, and with the Star Wars prequels, almost everyone I know was ambivalent to upset about them.

(Actually, I didn't get that Mighty Whitey vibe at all. What if Jake Sully had been played by someone like Taye Diggs? You have to understand, I didn't see "color" or race in the Earthlings. So if the crew of the mission had been more ethnically diverse would the Mighty Whitey comment even be valid?)

Yes, but less so.

It would still be the outsider from a fundamentally Western culture showing up and being more awesome than everyone else, which is a little dodgy.

That's funny, cause I originally had "Taye Diggs or an actor with Asian roots like Ken Watanabe or Roger Yuen" as my example but I edited them out because I didn't want to muddle the issue and I figured you would understand I meant a "non-white American or typically western dude".

I guess I should have left that part in as my point would have been clearer.

And for what it's worth, it got the highest opening weekend box-office ever in China over the weekend. That's a very non-western audience.

 

[shilsen]

Sounds a little like your personal prejudices showing here? If you are determined to read it in one way, then nobody can do anything about it, but you are rather quick to dismiss Mustrum's alternate reading.

That's amusing. You're rather quick to assume, with no evidence either way, that I was quick to dismiss Mustrum's reading. And it's funny that you assert that my personal prejudices are showing here, without considering whether there are any personal prejudices at play for anyone who dismisses the comments I (or the others arguing that there are some serious issues with Avatar) have made. One could just as easily assert that it's personal prejudice which makes people write it off as not a big deal.

That said...

The discussion is starting to get a little political, so I suggest that this aspect of the subject gets dropped.

Thanks

Fair enough. I'll drop the subject.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

That's funny, cause I originally had "Taye Diggs or an actor with Asian roots like Ken Watanabe or Roger Yuen" as my example but I edited them out because I didn't want to muddle the issue and I figured you would understand I meant a "non-white American or typically western dude".

Wouldn't really have mattered. The movie presented a corporate culture with entirely Western norms. I think we are to assume, as Hollywood generally prefers, that in the future, everyone is part of a Western culture.

 

[Fast Learner]

(Actually, I didn't get that Mighty Whitey vibe at all. What if Jake Sully had been played by someone like Taye Diggs? You have to understand, I didn't see "color" or race in the Earthlings. So if the crew of the mission had been more ethnically diverse would the Mighty Whitey comment even be valid?)

It wouldn't have changed my perception at all. "Mighty Whitey" is about the culturally identifiable hero of your "race" (ethnicity or cultural group is more accurate, but we use "race") being superior to those of other
races" at their own specialties, and usually getting the lead girl of the other "race," usually the "chief's" daughter.

In the case of Avatar it's just more literal: the word "race" is accurate. Same story. Someone from the human race who is better at the alien race at their own game, and who gets the alien girl. The ethnicity of the human is irrelevant.

 

[WayneLigon]

The movie presented a corporate culture with entirely Western norms. I think we are to assume, as Hollywood generally prefers, that in the future, everyone is part of a Western culture.

Not an invalid assumption at all. You could certainly argue that Western culture is already the dominant First-World culture on Earth and it doesn't seem like that will change any time soon. It's not a far step to think that with disappearing informational boundaries that all first-world cultures are going to basically blend into one.

It's not implausible at all that the space-going Company is going to be primarily run and operated by Westerners, so of course that's what you're going to see. Earth itself probably has several other cultures, but they haven't bothered or are unable (fiscally, technically, lack the will to power, whatever) to mount a massive space-based operation like the exploitation of Pandora.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

As Fast Learner has pointed out, culture is actually a red herring here, but in any case, perhaps I should have said "I think we are to assume, as Hollywood generally prefers, that in the future, everyone who matters is part of a Western culture."

However, I think that's possibly an even more diabolical position than my original statement. Hollywood generally clings to a very tame mass market version of pluralism.

 

[El Mahdi]

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