Rate Matrix Reloaded

[Chun-tzu]

Fight with Oracle's bodyguard: we have no idea who this guy is, what he wants or why he's fighting Neo. Ergo, no tension. The fight is long and the choreography, though skilled, offers very little eye-candy so we've really got nothing going on in this fight. Why is it here? Who cares?

First, the fight was pretty short. So I really don't think it's that big a deal, even if it wasn't necessary. But that's the question, was it necessary?

I don't know. However, it does introduce a new character, who is apparently in the final movie (and hopefully plays a bigger role). Also, something that no one seems to realize or comment on, Seraph was the only one who fought Neo evenly. Neo dominates every other fight, but we see that Neo is not invincible after all. Maybe Neo was holding back, maybe Seraph was; you're right, it wasn't very tense. But I'm not so sure that it was unnecessary.

Fight with 100 Agent Smiths: Agent Smith attempts to take over Neo. He fails. They fight. Neo flies away. Question 1: since we've already established that Smith is unable to take over Neo, what are they fighting about, exactly? Question 2: since Neo can evidently FLY AWAY anytime he likes, why are they fighting, exactly? Watch the final fight sequence from Jackie Chan's Project A (or, even better the middle-of-the-film sequence in the private club) and ask yourself what makes a cool fight sequence.

They're fighting because they hate each other (in my book, anyway). People ask, why doesn't he fly away? My reply is, why the heck SHOULD he? He was kicking Smith's rear left and right. If there were only the 10, 20 Smiths that he started off fighting, he probably would have won. And then maybe he could have questioned Smith further. But the Smiths kept coming and coming, and although Neo was hardly injured, it just became pointless.

If I'm fighting someone who is clearly an enemy, and I'm clearly winning, I don't see any reason at all to run away.

 

[barsoomcore]

He was kicking Smith's rear left and right. If there were only the 10, 20 Smiths that he started off fighting, he probably would have won. And then maybe he could have questioned Smith further.

How, exactly would you imagine he might have "won"? I mean, yeah, sure, he was chucking Agent Smiths in all directions -- and clearly accomplishing nothing. They just kept getting up again and coming after him. Not one seemed staggered or the slightest bit troubled by anything he ever did to them.

"Maybe the TWENTIETH time I hit him, he'll stay down."

Uh-huh.

This points out another basic flaw these films have in their quest to entertain me. Nobody ever suffers. Nobody ever gets hurt. Heck, nobody ever even loses their sunglasses. It's like D&D -- they all fight at maximum capacity until they run out of hit points and then BOOM they fall down. You never see anyone struggling, trying desperately to get in one last blow before they go down...

If we can't see somebody's ability to fight dropping, how do we know whether or not we should be worried? I mean, who cares how many times the Agent knocks Morpheus down if everytime he gets up he's just as good as he was at the start? How do we know if he's in trouble or not? And why do people keep hiring Chinese martial artists to choreograph fights with Japanese swords?

Sorry, pet peeve -- katana wielded like tai ch'i swords.

Blah blah blah.

 

[Chun-tzu]

How, exactly would you imagine he might have "won"? I mean, yeah, sure, he was chucking Agent Smiths in all directions -- and clearly accomplishing nothing. They just kept getting up again and coming after him. Not one seemed staggered or the slightest bit troubled by anything he ever did to them.

I don't think it's clear at all that he was accomplishing nothing; there were just too many Smiths to keep track of. Knock one down, two take his place.

"Maybe the TWENTIETH time I hit him, he'll stay down."

Uh-huh.

Yes. Isn't that what happened in his first fight, against the three Agents that interrupted the rebel meeting? At this point, Neo has no reason to believe Smith is any different.

Does the fight accomplish anything? Yes. Neo gets a better measure of his arch-nemesis. As Seraph had just told him, "You cannot know someone until you fight him." Both Neo and Smith had clearly changed considerably since their last encounter.

This points out another basic flaw these films have in their quest to entertain me. Nobody ever suffers. Nobody ever gets hurt. Heck, nobody ever even loses their sunglasses. It's like D&D -- they all fight at maximum capacity until they run out of hit points and then BOOM they fall down. You never see anyone struggling, trying desperately to get in one last blow before they go down...

Perhaps, but you're changing the issue. And just so you know, Smith's sunglasses were mortally wounded in the first Matrix movie.

If you didn't like the movie, okay. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. But some of these "faults" aren't really faults.

 

[Agamon]

Right when I finished watching it, I'd have given it a 7. Given a few hours to comtemplate what I'd seen, it gets a 9.

 

[Agamon]

This points out another basic flaw these films have in their quest to entertain me. Nobody ever suffers. Nobody ever gets hurt. Heck, nobody ever even loses their sunglasses. It's like D&D -- they all fight at maximum capacity until they run out of hit points and then BOOM they fall down. You never see anyone struggling, trying desperately to get in one last blow before they go down...

If we can't see somebody's ability to fight dropping, how do we know whether or not we should be worried? I mean, who cares how many times the Agent knocks Morpheus down if everytime he gets up he's just as good as he was at the start? How do we know if he's in trouble or not? And why do people keep hiring Chinese martial artists to choreograph fights with Japanese swords?

Sorry, pet peeve -- katana wielded like tai ch'i swords.

Heh, funny, I noticed that about the katana, too (though I let it bug me far less, apparently).

There is a logical reason for the non-dropping stanima, they're in the Matrix. While they're jumping around, kicking, punching and being smashed through walls, their real body is lying comfortably in a chair. That's kinda the whole idea. Remember when Neo was testing his new kung fu skills against Morpheus in the 1st movie? He was getting fatigued and busted up because he still thought it was his real body.

As for the fight against Sereph, even Neo thought it was pointless, so it's kinda hard to argue that it wasn't, though it was obviously intentional.

The burly fight was a game of oneupmanship between Neo and Smith (I think it will become apparent in Revolution that these two have become the Ying and Yang of each other, thus their mutual dislike/connection). Smith says, "Look, there are more than one of me." So Neo says, "Oh yeah, I can still beat you all up." Smith counters with, "Okay, I'll bring in more." Neo replies with, "And I'll kick their butts, too." It keeps going until it becomes obvious neither can win. What's not to understand?

And the entire point of Neo's existance was not to choose between 2 doors. The point to his existance was to choose the path less taken, and in doing so, create a world in which man and machine can coexist...whoops, that last part's a bit of speculation. Disregard.

 

[krunchyfrogg]

Never noticed anything about sword fighting styles, but in the first movie, Neo is shown learning many different martial arts. It can be assumed other programs have learned other styles as well, and they don't need to follow any fighting styles from centuries ago.

 

[DM with a vengence]

I give it a 6, it is at the same time one of the lamest and one of the coolest movies I've ever seen, but ultimately winds up being a parody of the first one.

Stuff that bothered me:
Locke: Who put this guy in charge of the army? IIRC, the human fleet numbers around 80 ships, and he continually demands that all of them be assigned to home defense. There isn't much difference between 80 ships and 77, but if those three remaining ships are in the right place at the right time, they could completely change the outcome of the battle. His grasp of statedgy and diplomacy are neanderthal, and I can only wonder how the humans lasted so long with him in command.

Nobody ever got hurt: In the first one, when somebody's getting beaten up, they really get beaten up. Bloody noses and lips, cuts on their clothing, etc. Here Neo and the Agents could bash each other all day without ill effects.

What happened to the Agents?: In the first one, Agents are incredibly skilled at hand to hand combat. Neo and Smith are evenly matched in their fight in the train station, and to anyone else getting close to an agent spells death. Here Trinity and Morpheus hold their onw against agents for at least a minute, and these are supposed to be upgraded versions.

In general, the movie suffered from a lack of dramatic tension, and self-discovery, and left me feeling unsatisfied at the ending.

 

[drnuncheon]

What happened to the Agents?: In the first one, Agents are incredibly skilled at hand to hand combat. Neo and Smith are evenly matched in their fight in the train station, and to anyone else getting close to an agent spells death. Here Trinity and Morpheus hold their onw against agents for at least a minute, and these are supposed to be upgraded versions.

Belief is key.

In the first movie, they believed that agents could not be beaten, so they always lost. Nobody's ever done it before.

In the second, they knew the agents could be beaten. Once one person does something, it seems to become easier. How many people have climbed Everest since Sir Edmund Hilary?

J

 

[Kesh]

I found it entertaining, but didn't grab me the way the first one did.

The biggest problem was timing. Exposition took too long. Fight scenes took too long. If they had mixed the two up a bit more, it would've helped tremendously.

Oh, and re: Seraph... I got the impression he was a firewall program for the Oracle. He screens all access and determines who is legitimately allowed to see her. The fight was to prove Neo was who he claimed to be, nothing more.

 

[John Crichton]

Belief is key.

In the first movie, they believed that agents could not be beaten, so they always lost. Nobody's ever done it before.

In the second, they knew the agents could be beaten. Once one person does something, it seems to become easier. How many people have climbed Everest since Sir Edmund Hilary?

I don't really buy into the belief conquers all theory because it was never even touched on in the film. Just because Neo does it, doesn't mean everyone can do it. Trinity & Morpheus believe Neo is The One which means he can do things they can't. Trinity & Morpheus still couldn't beat any of the agents in Reloaded, they just held them off a little longer which seemed kinda bogus to me considering they have been fighting in the Matrix longer than Neo. He may have given them a few tricks here and there, but I didn't see it happening. All I saw was nobody getting actually hurt what-so-ever until the very end when the plot deemed it neccessary for Trinity to get the snot kicked out of her. If she really believed she could take an agent and belief makes her a better fighter for it then she wouldn't have gotten splattered so badly.

As for Everest, more people have done it with success because more have tried (yes a credit to Hilary as he paved the way), not to mention the better technology and knowledge of mountain climbing. It's already been proven in the films that anyone who is not The One should lose to an agent. I was somewhat dissappointed that Morpheus' fight went in his favor without significant outside help. He didn't even have a scratch on him by the end of it as opposed to the first film where at least there were signs shown of him being in a fight.