D&D General Ravenloft, horror, & safety tools...

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Vaalingrade

Legend
I am only engaging this point and won't respond to your response. But this is worth responding to: this is one of my chief concerns. People are finding their very real psychological health issues are being dismissed because people who clearly don't have them (I can't prove it that they don't but it is becoming very obvious to everyone) are claiming to have them over everything under the sun. And that is going to ultimately harm people have are really having panic attacks. Again, none of what I am saying is about dismissing people having real mental health issues and symptoms. And nothing I am saying is about accusing someone of lying when they tell you they are having symptoms. I am saying we are in danger of watering down what it means to have them, and that people will take them less seriously as a result.
You do get that this makes no sense right?

We should be dismissive of people's issues because otherwise jackholes will dismiss their issues.

And also, you're dismissing people's mental health issues because you have a hunch?! That you can't prove? But go ahead and hurt people anyway just in case. Seriously. This is horrible.

I get it. The times are changing and it's scary. It might even feel restrictive because you're expected to do or not do crap that's gone unchallenged for a long time. But dismissing people's experiences isn't a way to 'fight back'. It's not something we should be fighting back against; it's self improvement.
 

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Fair. But would you want your issues and pain brought up at the table?
If you began to feel uncomfortable and stopped having fun, would you want the DM to ignore you? Or to stop/ cut away?

If I felt uncomfortable at the table, I would get up, dismiss myself and leave (which I've never felt uncomfortable doing for anything). Or I would wait till after the game and talk to the GM if it warranted a discussion. Generally though, if something happens at the table that makes me uncomfortable, that would be my issue to deal with. Again, this may well be a generational thing. But I am much more uncomfortable with safety tools than I am with that arrangement.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
I am only engaging this point and won't respond to your response. But this is worth responding to: this is one of my chief concerns. People are finding their very real psychological health issues are being dismissed because people who clearly don't have them (I can't prove it that they don't but it is becoming very obvious to everyone) are claiming to have them over everything under the sun. And that is going to ultimately harm people have are really having panic attacks. Again, none of what I am saying is about dismissing people having real mental health issues and symptoms. And nothing I am saying is about accusing someone of lying when they tell you they are having symptoms. I am saying we are in danger of watering down what it means to have them, and that people will take them less seriously as a result.
You're not going to respond, but I will: just because you think someone doesn't have a real mental illness doesn't mean they don't, and even if they don't, it doesn't matter when it comes to using checklists and other safety tools in an RPG.

It doesn't matter if you're accusing them to their face or not; you're still dismissing other people's issues because you think they don't have them. That's just as bad as the people who have said to my face, "but you speak so well; you can't have social anxiety!" or "but you have such a great sense of humor and smile so much; you can't have depression!" or (my favorite) "but you don't seem autistic!"

Unless you actually have evidence that the person is lying, who are you to claim that they're lying or trying to be cool? "It's obvious" isn't evidence. Especially when it's someone you don't know personally or that well. Because otherwise, one can easily say that "it's obvious" that you don't actually have panic attacks or any mental health issues; you're just saying that to lend yourself an air of legitimancy.

Mental health issues aren't a club that only the most special people can join. They're actual problems that anyone can have. Nobody is "watering down" mental health issues. If anything, they're bringing it to more people's attention so that more people can realize how serious and widespread they are.
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
1) This wasn't exactly my point. My point was safety tools and trigger warning becoming the norm, seems to be having a negative effect on people. This is definitely an opinion.
Please stop with the hypothetheories. If you think that the normalization of trigger warnings "has a negative effect on people" beyond a minor annoyance to you, provide evidence.
2) I never claimed humans can read minds. I said we can get a sense of other people, and have a feeling based on our past experience, social cues, what people say, whether they are expressing a feeling that is genuine or performative (and I was clear this can't be known, only speculated and inferred). The point was people can be dishonest about their feelings, they can misunderstand their own feelings, and they can exaggerate their feelings, and we shouldn't automatically accept something because someone says they have feeling X about it. We should sometimes be skeptical if it seems warranted.
I never claimed that you said that humans could read minds. I just said that humans can't read minds in order to support my argument. Not everything I say is directed to attack your argument.

Okay . . . if you say that you can tell what other people's triggers are, how say you can't you tell whether or not someone is faking it? If you "get a sense of other people through social cues, what they say, etc", how can you not tell whether or not they're lying about their triggers? Also, most people don't have the ability you seem to have with deciphering the triggers of others, so while it may not be helpful to someone with your skill, it can almost definitely be helpful to someone without it.

No. Full stop. No, absolutely no skepticism is warranted. If you don't trust your players to tell the truth about their triggers, they shouldn't trust you to DM for them. D&D is a game. Not a social competition to see who can point out who's lying about their triggers and who isn't. If you view your players as selfish monsters that will leap at the chance to somehow take advantage of you by lying about their mental health, I have a feeling that you should stop DMing due to social paranoia or find a different table that doesn't give you that feeling. D&D is a collaborative game, and as the saying goes "no D&D is better than bad D&D". No good can come from assuming that your players are out to get you at every moment.
3) Yes this is an option. Things like trigger warnings, and safety tools are not proven science at all and they are still hotly debated by professionals. I've seen good arguments for both positions, but I tend to find the arguments against these things more persuasive. This is also not a matter we have at all settled as a society. In gaming this has certainly gained widespread acceptance: that doesn't mean gamers are right.
You claim evidence, but do not present it. Also, the fact that a topic is a matter of debate does not mean that it's subjective. Climate change is real, but that doesn't stop people from debating about whether it exists. Something does not have to be "proven by science" in order to be beneficial, either.
4) This argument rests on the assumption that the resource in fact helps prevent the problem. I am disputing that assumption. You are definitely making a strong argument but isn't one a person can't disagree with without denying reality or objectivity (very few moral arguments are so objective---if they were it would be a lot easier for humans to get along with one another). What is more, this argument doesn't account for the things I am pointing to: for example even if we accept the premise that these resources can help prevent said problems, if they create other problems in the process, that is a complication that needs to be addressed (and I am saying, I see other problems emerging & I think the notion that these tools prevent problems is not fully true)
I have no idea what the hell this means. Please clarify, because right now, I'm reading it as "this argument rests on the assumption that because I have no evidence, my side is wrong". If that is your meaning here, you are objectively not arguing in good faith. You're saying "I have no evidence to support my argument, but that doesn't matter, because I still want to argue!!!"

It doesn't matter whether or not something is true, without evidence you cannot debate to support the fact that it is true. It matters that you are attempting to debate without the tools or intent to debate. Debate requires evidence, even though reality doesn't. It doesn't matter that the Americas existed if there was a debate between Europeans in the 7th century who had no evidence of the existence of the American Continents. If two Europeans were attempting to debate whether or not the Americas existed back then, the side without any evidence of their existence would not have the tools to debate, therefore their side in the debate was objectively wrong, even if their side in reality was correct. You are speculating instead of providing evidence, and using "evidence doesn't make something true/not true" to justify your argument. That is logically fallacious. You have no ground, so you might as well stop debating.
 
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We should be dismissive of people's issues because otherwise jackholes will dismiss their issues.

No, I am saying there are two groups of people A) people with real mental health issues and B) people who are following a social script for other reasons. My point is Jackholes will inevitably dismiss group A more if group B is given permission to flourish (this is by the way exactly what happened to people who have celiac disease at restaurants which is why I brought up that example: people who had mild issues or just thought gluten made them fuzzy, but clearly didn't have a real medical condition, made such a production of it all the time, real celiacs get dismissed. That is just the natural result of allowing that kind of performative behavior to go unchecked. I am not saying it is right. But it is a logical outcome that you can see a mile away if you've lived long enough
 

If I felt uncomfortable at the table, I would get up, dismiss myself and leave (which I've never felt uncomfortable doing for anything). Or I would wait till after the game and talk to the GM if it warranted a discussion. Generally though, if something happens at the table that makes me uncomfortable, that would be my issue to deal with. Again, this may well be a generational thing. But I am much more uncomfortable with safety tools than I am with that arrangement.
So because you don't need them no one else should need them either?
 

So because you don't need them no one else should need them either?

Like I said the issue is how ubiquitous they are becoming in the hobby and that they are being treated as an assumed good thing. I am saying this doesn't look so healthy to me. And I think a lot of the people who feel like safety tools are helping them, may actually be doing themselves more harm in the long run. I am sorry I am 43. To me safety tools seem a little ridiculous. I have to be honest
 

Please stop with the hypothetheories. If you think that the normalization of trigger warnings "has a negative effect on people" beyond a minor annoyance to you, provide evidence.

I never claimed that you said that humans could read minds. I just said that humans can't read minds in order to support my argument. Not everything I say is directed to attack your argument.

Okay . . . if you say that you can tell what other people's triggers are, how say you can't you tell whether or not someone is faking it? If you "get a sense of other people through social cues, what they say, etc", how can you not tell whether or not they're lying about their triggers? Also, most people don't have the ability you seem to have with deciphering the triggers of others, so while it may not be helpful to someone with your skill, it can almost definitely be helpful to someone without it.

No. Full stop. No, absolutely no skepticism is warranted. If you don't trust your players to tell the truth about their triggers, they shouldn't trust you to DM for them. D&D is a game. Not a social competition to see who can point out who's lying about their triggers and who isn't. If you view your players as selfish monsters that will leap at the chance to somehow take advantage of you by lying about their mental health, I have a feeling that you should stop DMing due to social paranoia or find a different table that doesn't give you that feeling. D&D is a collaborative game, and as the saying goes "no D&D is better than bad D&D". No good can come from assuming that your players are out to get you at every moment.

You claim evidence, but do not present it. Also, the matter that a topic is a matter of debate does not mean that it's subjective. Climate change is real, but that doesn't stop people from debating about whether it exists. Something does not have to be "proven by science" in order to be beneficial, either.

I have no idea what the hell this means. Please clarify, because right now, I'm reading it as "this argument rests on the assumption that because I have no evidence, my side is wrong". If that is your meaning here, you are objectively not arguing in good faith. You're saying "I have no evidence to support my argument, but that doesn't matter, because I still want to argue!!!"

It doesn't matter whether or not something is true without evidence that it is true. It matters that you are attempting to debate without the tools or intent to debate. Debate requires evidence, even though reality doesn't. It doesn't matter that Europeans in the 7th century had no evidence of the existence of the American Continents. If two Europeans were attempting to debate whether or not the Americas existed back then, the side without any evidence of their existence would not have the tools to debate, therefore their side in the debate was objectively wrong, even if their side in reality was correct. You are speculating instead of providing evidence, and using "evidence doesn't make something true/not true" to justify your argument. That is logically fallacious. You have no ground, so you might as well stop debating.

I am sorry. But I can't engage someone who pulls this routine
 

And also, you're dismissing people's mental health issues because you have a hunch?! That you can't prove? But go ahead and hurt people anyway just in case. Seriously. This is horrible.

I get it. The times are changing and it's scary. It might even feel restrictive because you're expected to do or not do crap that's gone unchallenged for a long time. But dismissing people's experiences isn't a way to 'fight back'. It's not something we should be fighting back against; it's self improvement.

Sigh. Forget it. You guys want a monster. That ins't what I am. But you also can't see how ridiculous this is and how obvious it is there is BS afoot. I don't know what else to say. Maybe I am old and out of touch. I think this stuff is causing people to behave in much more negative and unhealthy ways. Just based on the wisdom I've gained being alive four decades, it isn't an idea I can get behind.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
If you're confused by what a player puts, ask for clarification. These tools aren't meant to solve the problem perfectly, it's meant to give you a tool to start it. That does tell you something, it tells you that bondage could be a touchy subject for one of your players, so as a DM you should then do the work to find the cases where it would be okay and when it wouldn't be.
how the heck?.... "paralysis/physical restraint" is not the same as bondage and your giving a lot of credit to the idea that bob can talk about it to my face or that I know him well enough to delve for answers. Using @Disgruntled Hobbit 's example bob can say "I was almost paralyzed but it worked out " & still don't know to avoid the wagon chase I described down there. Writing words on a sheet of paper is a lot less stressful & on the spot than trying to say them while someone is looking you in the eye & that's part of the reason so many of those checklists in communities that give weight to these things often prompt the person filling them out to write things

Web and Hold Person aren't "plot or story elements." Also, what part of "requires discussion" is unclear?

And there's a big difference between the Paralyzed game condition by a monster and being paralyzed due to spinal injury. If someone was in a bad car crash in their teens and ran the risk of being confined to a wheelchair for life, they might have big issues with the latter but not the former. And not be comfortable with their character being restrained to a bed as it recalls memories of those months following the crash when they were uncertain if they'd be able to walk ever again

You may not have realized it when you proved my point of expecting to place the entire responsibility on the GM being unreasonable when you posted that and made a good case for why bob needs an explain box to write bad car crash almost paralyzed spent months in a wheelchair because that's two more touchy subjects I wouldn't even suspect with a possible third mentions of spines to avoid based on "paralysis/physical restraint". I may not have even planned for the group to hop in a wagon already horsed up & go on a chase trying to flee from /catch a monster or whatever, but I know a pretty freaking important sounding complication to avoid risking when people start rolling ones on their land vehicle checks in hat completely unplanned organic situation. With the sheet in the OP I need to go confront bob face to face looking for answers so he's going to feel put on the spot talking about issues you yourself said might be big issues he's uncomfortable with. If I'm taking notes so I have a reference six months from now when I want to double check that microscope is going to feel even more uncomfortable for bob.
 

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