Ravenloft TSR sales numbers

Hard to compare from these charts settings sales from their introduction through the periods when NEW settings are introduced (and sometimes introduced again or updated or revised or... etc) but my understanding is that what will become evident is that ,in general, each new setting sold less than the new setting before it, that sales of the newest setting also dropped off more quickly, and it might even be possible to see immediate decreases in sales of other settings when another new one is introduced. At least, that's what Dancey said that Wizards found when THEY first started analyzing TSR's sales (something that apparently TSR themselves never did).

The actual numbers are likely just a curiosity at this point. Because TSR's sales practices and product creation were SO screwed up the numbers can't possibly really be translated as evidence of, say, ACTUAL popularity of a setting. When TSR was putting out a new setting or RE-introducing a revised/altered setting nearly every year they weren't always selling to NEW gamers. If you start with 1 setting (World1), everybody is gonna buy it because it's the only setting you sell. When you introduce a second one, then each NEW gaming group will be choosing between them - and only a limited percentage of OLD gaming groups are going to switch settings, cancelling their current ongoing campaign to start a campaign set in the NEW setting of World2. By the time you're already selling 4 different settings and introduce a 5th, then ALL the completely new gamers are going to split their purchases of the game world they choose to play in among all the ones that are available to buy. Similarly, current gaming groups that DO start a new campaign may not even buy a new setting to do so. They may have already bought one the previous 4 and simply not used it yet. If the established group DOES buy a new setting, now instead of 4 to choose from there's 5. So instead of sales more assuredly going to brand-new World5, the sales for those groups are being split among World1 to World4. And all of that is assuming they are interested in even buying a setting to use rather than going with a homebrew or a setting from another game publisher entirely. And then there's the number of new players coming into the game itself to consider. When expansion of the customer base slows, so do sales of EVERYTHING, especially settings which are a buy-once-and-it's-yours-forever product that few DM's or groups are actually just going to collect and let sit unused. When the expansion halts altogether or possibly even starts to shrink, then you are REALLY in trouble because the only people you're selling to at that point are by definition people who already have one or more settings that they have purchased and therefore less interested in buying another one just because it might be "New/Improved!"

All of that means that sales numbers actually fails to tell you anything meaningful other than the numbers were shrinking from every side and a lot of it was TSR's own fault. But we already knew that, when WotC bought TSR and Dancey eventually let the broad strokes of what he'd found in looking at their books be known.

So... curious, but without deep analysis (which I'm not gonna do... :) ) I don't see anything new being revealed.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Reynard

Legend
Huh. The environment books were more like current 5e books in my memory - a mix of player focused stuff at the front and then DM stuff at the back. I just pulled a few off the shelf to see if I was wrong but it matches my memories. Lots of new feats, classes, races and whatnot and then worldbuilding stuff for the DM. I kind of thought of them as players books with some things for DMs in them because Wizards had decided that only player focused books would sell.

And the monster theme books I consider to be monster books - better monster books than a typical Monster Manual, but still monster books. But ymmv of course.
It is so weird to me that so many people seem to try and redefine things so that it looks like WotC has always had the 5E publishing strategy. It's just not true.
 

Riley

Legend
The big difference between the 3.5e environmental books and the 5e strategy was that they cranked out a new 3.5e splat book every 1-2 months.

Only a DM who was a crazy person like me tried to keep up with the new 3.5e releases, and even I skipped most of the environmental books. (I bought Cityscape and Dungeonscape, or whatever exactly they were called.)

Those 3.5e books do otherwise seem fairly similar to the 5e expansion books, to my eye.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Because the later releases will contain folks who own two or even all three. Triple counting the folks who purchased all of them as if they were three different customers. And I suspect that a LOT of those folks who picked up the later settings are folks who also purchased the first one. If you can make your case comparing just the initial boxed sets it's a stronger case. And since the case is easily made by just looking at initial boxed set numbers I'd go with the stronger case.
Yeah, it matches my experience, too, but isolated our experience may just be noise. The TSR data suggests that beyond being common, such behavior us historically notmative.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
It is so weird to me that so many people seem to try and redefine things so that it looks like WotC has always had the 5E publishing strategy. It's just not true.
I don't know what you mean - 3e wasn't the 5e publishing strategy at all nor am I arguing that it was. In fact it was the opposite - so heavily invested in selling books to players that I felt like they kind of ignored DMs and would only put out adventures and monster books that were exclusively for DM content. Any other content they made for DMs had to have feats and classes and other player cookies in it because almost everything was being aimed at players, not DMs.
 

Reynard

Legend
I don't know what you mean - 3e wasn't the 5e publishing strategy at all nor am I arguing that it was. In fact it was the opposite - so heavily invested in selling books to players that I felt like they kind of ignored DMs and would only put out adventures and monster books that were exclusively for DM content. Any other content they made for DMs had to have feats and classes and other player cookies in it because almost everything was being aimed at players, not DMs.
So my argument is that 5E basically ignores GMs. I think that's how we got our wires crossed.
 

The big difference between the 3.5e environmental books and the 5e strategy was that they cranked out a new 3.5e splat book every 1-2 months.

Only a DM who was a crazy person like me tried to keep up with the new 3.5e releases, and even I skipped most of the environmental books. (I bought Cityscape and Dungeonscape, or whatever exactly they were called.)

Those 3.5e books do otherwise seem fairly similar to the 5e expansion books, to my eye.
i found the player focused model of 3E really burned me out by the end of its run. It also added to burnout because while there was a ton of stuff to inspire players, there wasn’t much that inspired me as a GM (and the TSR model, whatever flaws it had, kept me excited about GMing by providing constant sources of inspiration)
 

Voadam

Legend
i found the player focused model of 3E really burned me out by the end of its run. It also added to burnout because while there was a ton of stuff to inspire players, there wasn’t much that inspired me as a GM (and the TSR model, whatever flaws it had, kept me excited about GMing by providing constant sources of inspiration)
I found a lot of inspiration as DM from OGL materials. Tons of modules, lots of monster books, interesting campaign settings, some neat mechanics systems.
 

Hard to compare from these charts settings sales from their introduction through the periods when NEW settings are introduced (and sometimes introduced again or updated or revised or... etc) but my understanding is that what will become evident is that ,in general, each new setting sold less than the new setting before it, that sales of the newest setting also dropped off more quickly, and it might even be possible to see immediate decreases in sales of other settings when another new one is introduced. At least, that's what Dancey said that Wizards found when THEY first started analyzing TSR's sales (something that apparently TSR themselves never did).

The actual numbers are likely just a curiosity at this point. Because TSR's sales practices and product creation were SO screwed up the numbers can't possibly really be translated as evidence of, say, ACTUAL popularity of a setting. When TSR was putting out a new setting or RE-introducing a revised/altered setting nearly every year they weren't always selling to NEW gamers. If you start with 1 setting (World1), everybody is gonna buy it because it's the only setting you sell. When you introduce a second one, then each NEW gaming group will be choosing between them - and only a limited percentage of OLD gaming groups are going to switch settings, cancelling their current ongoing campaign to start a campaign set in the NEW setting of World2. By the time you're already selling 4 different settings and introduce a 5th, then ALL the completely new gamers are going to split their purchases of the game world they choose to play in among all the ones that are available to buy. Similarly, current gaming groups that DO start a new campaign may not even buy a new setting to do so. They may have already bought one the previous 4 and simply not used it yet. If the established group DOES buy a new setting, now instead of 4 to choose from there's 5. So instead of sales more assuredly going to brand-new World5, the sales for those groups are being split among World1 to World4. And all of that is assuming they are interested in even buying a setting to use rather than going with a homebrew or a setting from another game publisher entirely. And then there's the number of new players coming into the game itself to consider. When expansion of the customer base slows, so do sales of EVERYTHING, especially settings which are a buy-once-and-it's-yours-forever product that few DM's or groups are actually just going to collect and let sit unused. When the expansion halts altogether or possibly even starts to shrink, then you are REALLY in trouble because the only people you're selling to at that point are by definition people who already have one or more settings that they have purchased and therefore less interested in buying another one just because it might be "New/Improved!"

All of that means that sales numbers actually fails to tell you anything meaningful other than the numbers were shrinking from every side and a lot of it was TSR's own fault. But we already knew that, when WotC bought TSR and Dancey eventually let the broad strokes of what he'd found in looking at their books be known.

So... curious, but without deep analysis (which I'm not gonna do... :) ) I don't see anything new being revealed.

Forgotten Realms is the exception it out sold the previous settings, even Greyhawk which was the only setting in it's heyday.
 

I found a lot of inspiration as DM from OGL materials. Tons of modules, lots of monster books, interesting campaign settings, some neat mechanics systems.

One thing I did like about the d20 boom was the amount of stuff that was out there, but it was also a time where I remember quality radically varying (or at least being harder to judge by glancing through a book in the store than now). But I did like a lot of the d20 stuff. However I still found that 3E model enervating as a GM because you often wanted 3E specific or setting specific content or adventures to inspire and there just wasn't anything that inspired me the way something like the old Ravenloft had or even things like the old complete books or green books and blue books. I think for me, and again this was just my preference as there has been a long debate on the ideal balance, is the 3E stuff was way too focused on players, way to focused on crunch over flavor, and I just started feeling more like a workhorse than a GM. At first I quite liked it. And there were things about 3E, once you leaned into them, I enjoyed (I played 3E all through its run and beyond). But at a certain point, after some very disappointing modules and GM support, and just not feeling it, I started to go back to my older books from earlier editions, almost as a joke, and realized I was so much more inspired by them.
 

Remove ads

Top