Ray of Frost and Cloud of Daggers; Red Headed Stepchildren of Wizard At-Wills?

[Graf]

Despite the Wizard description stating that Dex is useful for Wizards, it really doesn't seem like a good attribute for them.

This was a huge shock to me, but completely true.
Dex is the worst attribute for a wizard to take. It doesn't feed into AC/Ref/any wizard or common adventuring skills, or anything but the wand of accuracy.

From a strategic standpoint it begs for dump status.

First edition that's true for.

 

[Vendark]

It doesn't feed into AC/Ref/any wizard or common adventuring skills, or anything but the wand of accuracy.

There are some feats that require it. IIRC Astral Fire, Arcane Reach, and possibly some others.

 

[Particle_Man]

I'd make dex a 10, but not an 8 (that is for str). Initiative is still nice for wizards, and every little bit helps after taking Improved Initiative as a feat.

Another prop for Cloud of Daggers: Mage Hand is a conjuration so enemies can't go into its space. It is also a minor action to create. So Cloud of Daggers (standard action) and Mage Hand (minor action) can block minions coming down a 10' corridor (well they could go down it but they would die horribly).

 

[Mistwell]

What I like the most about Cloud of Daggers is that it's a spell which can, given creative use, be far better than one would assume at first glance, and to me that's just Wizarding at it's best, even if your allies are doing some of it.

For example, I found this to be an interesting creative way to use Clod of Daggers (from Gleemax):

Originally Posted by McDungeon
An elf controller will probably want thunderwave and cloud of daggers for their at wills pick. (Though I love ray of frost)

Cloud of daggers is a guaranteed hit vs minions for the +wisdom dmg. And can deter some mobs from charging or whatever else.

It nukes harder than magic missile because of this(assuming 18 wis). 1d6+4+3 potentially, vs 2d4+4 or 5... 10.5 vs 9 or 10 average. Scales even better than magic missile later too. 1d6+6+5 vs 2d4+6 or 7... 14.5 vs 11 or 12 average at paragon tier.

Thunderwave can also benefit from the +wis dmg by potentially knocking enemies into, or through the cloud.

This isn't so useful for the controlling aspect, but, a controller mage has limited options for damage and the +wis is a nice effect, or when you're mopping up at the end of combat.

You can also action pt beforehand to use icy terrain, and make them prone, that way you can push them back with thunderwave into a cloud of daggers and stack up the mobs. The mobs can't shift 1 for occupied sq. due to the difficult terrain to stand up, so as long as one mob is standing on that square, they all dogpile and take the cloud of daggers damage.

That trick synergizes well with orb implement at 1st lvl to 10th, but I still like wand for the +hit and prefer the second implement of orb at 11th.

I also wonder about thunderwave. Doesn't it harm your allies as well as enemies?

 

[mlund]

Yes, Thunderwave can't differentiate between friend and foe, so it is prone to friendly-fire incidents.

I wonder about Cloud of Daggers vs. minions, as minions do not take damage from a missed attack - even if it has "miss" damage. Causing automatic damage at the start of the target's next turn is still an effect of an Attack that missed that minion - and thusly I'd think the minion ignores the damage.

As to the damage output of the Cloud of Daggers, "It's still just a point or two of damage," doesn't make a compelling argument to me. Everything is "just a point or two of damage," in the short term - Weapon Focus, Power Attack, racial weapon damage feats, etc. Those extra points of damage add up and kill things, period.

When an Int 18, Wis 14 Wizard hits with a Cloud of Daggers he deals 1d6 + 6 damage to an enemy, plus an additional 2 damage at the start of the enemy's next turn (assuming that enemy survived). That's an average of 11.5 damage per round. Magic Missile w/ 18 Int is 2d4 + 4 damage, or an average of 9.0 damage per round. Over a 4 round fight that's an average of 10 extra damage.

On top of the that it leaves an on-board hazard for the whole round that he and his companions can take advantage of by pushing and sliding foes through the damaging square.

Both for raw damage and on-board utility, Cloud of Daggers is a better spell for a Wizard that uses his ability scores wisely. Magic Missile has better range and interactions with powers that key off of basic ranged attacks (all of 1 epic-level Warlord power at the moment).

- Marty Lund

 

[Mistwell]

Yes, Thunderwave can't differentiate between friend and foe, so it is prone to friendly-fire incidents.

I wonder about Cloud of Daggers vs. minions, as minions do not take damage from a missed attack - even if it has "miss" damage. Causing automatic damage at the start of the target's next turn is still an effect of an Attack that missed that minion - and thusly I'd think the minion ignores the damage.

The fixed damage isn't a result of a miss. It happens, whether you missed or not. Cloud of Daggers does not have an entry for "miss" at all in fact.

 

[Mezzer]

The fixed damage isn't a result of a miss. It happens, whether you missed or not. Cloud of Daggers does not have an entry for "miss" at all in fact.

You really don't wanna be C&Ping stuff out of copyrighted books onto a messageboard...

And yes, Cloud of Daggers kills minions, the effect happens regardless of hitting or not.

And as for Thunderweave, a Wizard has to be careful how he's gonna use his spells, if he doesn't wanna hurt his allies. Occasionally yelling "Duck!" and just blasting works too.

 

[IanB]

I find it sort of odd that the cloud of daggers aftereffect isn't considered a Zone, which means you can't dispel it, etc.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Magic Missile has better range and interactions with powers that key off of basic ranged attacks (all of 1 epic-level Warlord power at the moment).

Actually, the Warlord has a number of abilities that grant basic attacks, mostly melee, and only one or two that are specifically ranged, but also a number that can be either. Those start at 7th level, so it's not a trivial advantage to be able to make an effective ranged basic attack, if your leader is a Warlord. I'm sure there are other uses, as well.

It's also not a trivial danger to your friends if you're dominated... (dominated creatures can only make basic attacks).

 

[pinbot]

When an Int 18, Wis 14 Wizard hits with a Cloud of Daggers he deals 1d6 + 6 damage to an enemy, plus an additional 2 damage at the start of the enemy's next turn (assuming that enemy survived). That's an average of 11.5 damage per round. Magic Missile w/ 18 Int is 2d4 + 4 damage, or an average of 9.0 damage per round. Over a 4 round fight that's an average of 10 extra damage.
- Marty Lund

You're double counting the Wis bonus. Cloud does 1d6 + Int when it hits (d6 +4 in above example) then wis at the start of the target's turn. So...9.5 vs 9 is the real comparison. Pretty comparable. The trade off is a bit of board control vs extra range and the virtues of a force attack (which aren't so pronounced as they were in 3x of course).