D&D 5E Re-Imagining the D&D Planes as MtG Color Pie

Aldarc · Jun 29, 2020

Discussion in the "Are evil gods necessary" thread got me thinking about the alignment setup of the Great Wheel and how extraplanar entities factor into that setup: good/evil, law/chaos, and everything in-between. (And it's a lovely Wheel for what it does and represents.) But I was curious about alternatives. I am aware of the World Axis (4e), the World Tree (Forgotten Realms), the Orrery (Eberron), and so on. But I also began thinking about Magic the Gathering and its Color Pie. My thoughts of late have drifted on how the Color Pie could be used to create a planar model that is distinct from the alignment-based setup of the Great Wheel.

Disclaimer: At the outset, I know that there will be the invariable person saying "Why bother? It's more trouble than it's worth" or ever positive contribution of "The Great Wheel is already perfect in every inconceivable way possible" or even "That's not how planes in MtG works." None of these comments really address the point of this thread. This is brainstorming. This is play. This thread is about taking the concepts of the MtG Color Pie and apply them to creating a new planar setup.

It seems like there could be at least four different viable models using the MtG Color Pie as a basis.

Basic Model: Five Colors (Five Planes)
This minimalist model just uses the basic five colors as the planes: e.g., Blue, Black, Red, Green, White.

Transitional Ring Model: Base Five Colors plus Transitional Colors (10 Planes)
This slightly more advanced model takes the five colors as is, but also includes the outer transitional blends: e.g., White/Blue, Blue/Black, Black/Red, Red/Green, and Green/White.

"Theros" Model: Base Five Colors plus Two-Color Blends (15 Planes)
The "Theros" model takes the above, but also includes the five blend combinations from opposing colors: e.g., White/Red, Red/Blue, Blue/Green, Green/Black, and Black/White.

"Ravnica" Model: No Base Colors, Only Two-Color Blends (10 Planes)
The Ravnica Model removes the base colors and only utilizes the two-blended colors.

So if we operated with these four different models, where would the various planar entities of D&D fit (or not) in their respective setups? I'm not expecting everything to fit, because some things were developed in the Great Wheel to "fill in the blanks" with planar alignments. But I'm curious which of these models people would prefer and how they would rearrange the furniture, so to speak, with the planar entities we have in D&D.

Li Shenron · Jun 29, 2020

There is a faint correlation between colors and alignments: blue = lawful, black = evil, red = chaotic, green = neutral and white = good. This could be used as a basis draft for mapping.

At the same time, there are also possible correlations with elements and energy types: blue = water, red = fire, white = air/positive energy, black = poison/negative energy.

First draft that comes to my mind:

Blue: Astral, Plane of Water, Arcadia, Mechanus
Black: Shadowfell, Abyss, Hades, Carceri
Red: Plane of Fire, Ysgard, Limbo, Nine Hells, Gehenna
Green: Feywild, Arborea, Beastlands
White: Plane of Air, Mount Celestia, Elysium

Ethereal, Plane of Earth, Bytopia, Pandemonium, Acheron and Outlands more ambiguous. Some of these however are already fillers in the great wheel, so there is no harm in just ditching them completely.

As usual with any categorization exercises, soon enough it gets irritating and you start to feel that something is wrong with what doesn't fit the given categories, while in reality it is the original idea of categorizing which is ill-fated. Give it a couple of posts more and we'll be arguing that "Nine Hells can't be red because they are lawful" but "how can they not be red if most of them are on fire".

But I really want to try and not be that invariable person...

So I review the previous draft, remove some weakly-conceived outer planes, and exempt some transitive planes from belonging to a color:

Blue: Plane of Water, Arcadia, Mechanus
Black: Shadowfell, Abyss, Hades, Carceri
Red: Plane of Fire, Ysgard, Limbo, Nine Hells, Gehenna
Green: Feywild, Arborea, Beastlands
White: Plane of Air, Mount Celestia, Elysium

Colorless: Astral, Ethereal, Outlands

This still leaves out the Plane of Earth. It's not really green, as it is usually depicted as mineral and almost lifeless. But it's also not really black.

Material planes are made of all colors.

Krachek · Jun 29, 2020

Cool way to add fresh air in DnD.

Im not an expert so I give this as reference
How the ‘Magic: The Gathering’ Color Wheel Explains Humanity

Some fiends will go black, but Red too, and some Black&Blue.
i think at least dual color will be necessary to match monster complexity.

but more important, leave out any correlation with the old system.
Find new name for plane, for devils, for demons,
otherwise it will be a struggle to return to the old good evil, chaos law opposition.

TwoSix · Jun 29, 2020

Personally, I'd go with mono-color plus the 5 allied color pairs. The 5 colors obviously have a definition, and the 5 allied pairs also have their own strong thematics, since they're defined as the antithesis of their shared enemy. (Such as how White-Green's Altruism opposes Black's selfishness.) The 5 enemy pairs struggle to find that kind of resonance. It works in Ravnica because it's OK for a guild to be somewhat incoherent, but I think it waters down a planar "big picture" concept.

Of course, that being said, I suppose planes that are naturally in tension might make interesting points for adventuring! I could see a White-Red plane as an Ysgard analogue, high mountains and deep valleys where armed camps clash for territory during the day and party all night. Or Green-Black as a "violence of nature" plane, filled with acid swamps and deep jungles like some of the layers of the Abyss are often described as.

Ok, I might have talked myself into the 15 planes, lol.

Just looking at the Great Wheel planes, I can see some extant locations that fit a lot of the color tropes and would make a good baseline.

Arcadia = White/Blue
Elysium = White/Green

Some mix of Celestia and Bytopia for White. Sort of like a productive worker village at the base of a mountain, and self-sacrifice and virtue as you ascend to the peak.

Green would be a mix of Arcadia and the Beastlands.

Red/Green would be sort of like Olympus, I think? Emphasis on hedonism and non-stop parties. Unchecked emotion.

Red/Black would be some sort of libertine city, combined with the greatest bazaar in the multiverse. Grazzt's Argent Palace mixed with Sigil.

Black/Blue would be some kind of mix between Dis, Minauros, Cania and Acheron. Cold and sterile, with a military vibe.

The pure colors are a little harder. I see Blue as sort of like the Library and the Neitherlands from The Magicians, or Borges' Library of Babel, where all the secrets in the multiverse are stored. Not sure about Black and Red.

Cap'n Kobold · Jun 29, 2020

Li Shenron said:
This still leaves out the Plane of Earth. It's not really green, as it is usually depicted as mineral and almost lifeless. But it's also not really black.

Isn't Red associated with both Fire and Earth as well as Chaos?

Krachek · Jun 29, 2020

For what I understand Elemental of all kind would be green.
To help here is another link
Color

Parmandur · Jun 29, 2020

Aldarc said:
Discussion in the "Are evil gods necessary" thread got me thinking about the alignment setup of the Great Wheel and how extraplanar entities factor into that setup: good/evil, law/chaos, and everything in-between. (And it's a lovely Wheel for what it does and represents.) But I was curious about alternatives. I am aware of the World Axis (4e), the World Tree (Forgotten Realms), the Orrery (Eberron), and so on. But I also began thinking about Magic the Gathering and its Color Pie. My thoughts of late have drifted on how the Color Pie could be used to create a planar model that is distinct from the alignment-based setup of the Great Wheel.

Disclaimer: At the outset, I know that there will be the invariable person saying "Why bother? It's more trouble than it's worth" or ever positive contribution of "The Great Wheel is already perfect in every inconceivable way possible" or even "That's not how planes in MtG works." None of these comments really address the point of this thread. This is brainstorming. This is play. This thread is about taking the concepts of the MtG Color Pie and apply them to creating a new planar setup.

It seems like there could be at least four different viable models using the MtG Color Pie as a basis.

Basic Model: Five Colors (Five Planes)
This minimalist model just uses the basic five colors as the planes: e.g., Blue, Black, Red, Green, White.

Transitional Ring Model: Base Five Colors plus Transitional Colors (10 Planes)
This slightly more advanced model takes the five colors as is, but also includes the outer transitional blends: e.g., White/Blue, Blue/Black, Black/Red, Red/Green, and Green/White.

"Theros" Model: Base Five Colors plus Two-Color Blends (15 Planes)
The "Theros" model takes the above, but also includes the five blend combinations from opposing colors: e.g., White/Red, Red/Blue, Blue/Green, Green/Black, and Black/White.

"Ravnica" Model: No Base Colors, Only Two-Color Blends (10 Planes)
The Ravnica Model removes the base colors and only utilizes the two-blended colors.

So if we operated with these four different models, where would the various planar entities of D&D fit (or not) in their respective setups? I'm not expecting everything to fit, because some things were developed in the Great Wheel to "fill in the blanks" with planar alignments. But I'm curious which of these models people would prefer and how they would rearrange the furniture, so to speak, with the planar entities we have in D&D.

Don't forget the three color combos, and five-color (Sigil, Material Plane?). All told, there are 26 combos in the Color Pie.

SkidAce · Jun 29, 2020

Li Shenron said:
So I review the previous draft, remove some weakly-conceived outer planes, and exempt some transitive planes from belonging to a color:

Blue: Plane of Water, Arcadia, Mechanus
Black: Shadowfell, Abyss, Hades, Carceri
Red: Plane of Fire, Ysgard, Limbo, Nine Hells, Gehenna
Green: Feywild, Arborea, Beastlands
White: Plane of Air, Mount Celestia, Elysium

Colorless: Astral, Ethereal, Outlands

This still leaves out the Plane of Earth. It's not really green, as it is usually depicted as mineral and almost lifeless. But it's also not really black.

Material planes are made of all colors.

I like this one, thanks, I will keep it for a future campaign idea.