re-revised Sorcerer

[Thanee]

>>> Click HERE for a toned down version, which is more in line with the wizard and not based on the psion anymore. <<<



After reading a comment in my XPH discussion thread over at the rules forum, I had an idea about the sorcerer... let's see how you like this...

The basic idea is to assume, that the sorcerer is not on par with the other classes, and therefore needs to be improved. It also assumes that the balance between wizard and XPH psion is just fine. I'm using the XPH psion as a rough guideline, therefore. So, this is basically the upside down approach to my re-revised psion. Enjoy!

Altered Spells Known:

_1st 4/2
_2nd 5/3
_3rd 5/3/2
_4th 6/4/3
_5th 6/4/3/2
_6th 7/5/4/3
_7th 7/5/4/3/2
_8th 8/5/5/4/3
_9th 8/5/5/4/3/2
10th 9/5/5/5/4/3
11th 9/5/5/5/4/3/2
12th 9/5/5/5/4/4/3
13th 9/5/5/5/4/4/3/1
14th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/2
15th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/2/1
16th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/3/2
17th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/3/2/1
18th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2
19th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2
20th 9/5/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3

Note: Almost the same in the end, mostly updated to the standard spell level progression and a quicker access to multiple high level spells. 19th level looks a bit dry, tho.

Altered Spells Per Day:

_1st 5/3
_2nd 6/4
_3rd 6/5/3
_4th 6/6/4
_5th 6/6/5/3
_6th 6/6/6/4
_7th 6/6/6/5/3
_8th 6/6/6/6/4
_9th 6/6/6/6/5/3
10th 6/6/6/6/6/4
11th 6/6/6/6/6/5/3
12th 6/6/6/6/6/6/4
13th 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
14th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
15th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
16th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
17th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
18th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
19th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5
20th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6

Note: Updated to match the quicker spell level progression.

Skill Points: Sorcerers get (4+Int modifier) skill points per level.

Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: arcana (Int), Knowledge: the planes (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Note: Not entirely sure about Gather Information, Knowledge: the planes, and Sense Motive here.

Bonus Feats: Sorcerers gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level and a bonus metamagic feat at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level.

Spell Merging (Su): Sorcerers can use multiple lower level spell slots to cast higher level spells. Whenever the sorcerer casts a spell, he can decide to either use up an appropriate spell slot of the same or higher level as the spell being cast as normal, or he can use up two or more spell slots, as long as the sum of the spell slot levels at least equals the level of the spell being cast. 0th level spell slots count as one-half spell level for this purpose. Spellstones (see below) cannot be used in conjunction with this ability.

Note: This could be changed into a metamagic feat, alternatively.

Errata to the Sorcerer's 'Spell Swapping' ability: Upon reaching 3rd level, and at ever odd-numbered sorcerer level after that (5th, 7th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. ...

Errata to Quicken Spell: Spontaneous casters can use Quicken Spell without an increase in casting time. Casting a quickened spell is a free action for a spontaneous caster, such as bard or sorcerer.
Errata to Metamagic Rods: Sorcerers can use Metamagic Rods without an increase in casting time.

New Item: Spellstone: Spellstones hold the essence of a spell slot that can be used for spontaneous casting. If the owner of a spellstone is able to spontaneously cast spells, he can use the spellstone instead of one of his own spell slots once per day, when spontaneously casting a spell. Cost: Level² x 1,000gp.

Simple and effective. What do you think?

Bye
Thanee

 

[iceifur]

The basic idea is to assume, that the sorcerer is not on par with the other classes, and therefore needs to be improved.

Agreed. Whole-heartedly agreed

Altered Spells Per Day:

_1st 5/3
_2nd 6/4
_3rd 6/5/3
_4th 6/6/4
_5th 6/6/5/3
_6th 6/6/6/4
_7th 6/6/6/5/3
_8th 6/6/6/6/4
_9th 6/6/6/6/5/3
10th 6/6/6/6/6/4
11th 6/6/6/6/6/5/3
12th 6/6/6/6/6/6/4
13th 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
14th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
15th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
16th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
17th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
18th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
19th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5
20th 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6

Note: Updated to match the quicker spell level progression.

Something that should have been done in the first place.

Skill Points: Sorcerers get (4+Int modifier) skill points per level.

Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: arcana (Int), Knowledge: the planes (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Note: Not entirely sure about Gather Information, Knowledge: the planes, and Sense Motive here.

I agree that the sorcerer should have (4+Int mod) skill points / level, mainly to balance them with the wizards' "virtual" skill points by virtue of Int as a casting stat.

I'd personally drop Gather Info (info? I cast spells, dammit!), and Knowledge: the planes (sorcerers aren't book intensive; I can see how they'd pick up Knowledge: arcana by interacting with magical forces everyday, but not Knowledge: the planes). I'd keep Sense Motive, though (as a counterpart skill to Bluff and Diplomacy).

Bonus Feats: Sorcerers gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level and a bonus metamagic feat at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level.

Agreed. Why should wizards have all the metamagic fun, especially considering that sorcerers are BUILT for metamagic goodness.

Spell Merging (Su): Sorcerers can use multiple lower level spell slots to cast higher level spells. Whenever the sorcerer casts a spell, he can decide to either use up an appropriate spell slot of the same or higher level as the spell being cast as normal, or he can use up two or more spell slots, as long as the sum of the spell slot levels equals the level of the spell being cast. 0th level spell slots count as one-half spell level for this purpose.

Note: This could be changed into a metamagic feat, alternatively.

Interesting concept, and powerful too. I'd remove the ability to cannibalize 0th level slots, though (no sorcerer would ever cast a single 0th level spell using a 0th level slot -- 6 0th level spells = 1 extra 3rd level spell. If the sorcerer actually cast a 0th level spell -- highly unlikely -- they'd use a higher level slot, as needed)

I'd go with the metamagic feat idea, personally, and make it available to both sorcerors and wizards (wizards would make all the decisions when preparing the spells).

Errata to the Sorcerer's 'Spell Swapping' ability: Upon reaching 3rd level, and at ever odd-numbered sorcerer level after that (5th, 7th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. ...

Errata to Quicken Spell: Spontaneous casters can use Quicken Spell without an increase in casting time. Casting a quickened spell is a free action for a spontaneous caster, such as bard or sorcerer.
Errata to Metamagic Rods: Sorcerers can use Metamagic Rods without an increase in casting time.

New Item: Spellstone: Spellstones hold the essence of a spell slot that can be used for spontaneous casting. If the owner of a spellstone is able to spontaneously cast spells, he can use the spellstone instead of one of his own spell slots once per day, when spontaneously casting a spell. Cost: Level² x 1,000gp.

Nice. I'd throw in another new item, something like we've done IMC and, amazingly enough, called a [Spell]stone (hmmm...):

New Item: [Spell]stone: [Spell]stones hold the knowledge of a spell that can be used for spontaneous casting. If the owner of a [spell]stone is able to spontaneously cast spells, he can use the spell contained in the [spell]stone as if it were on his list of spells known. [Spell]stones are named after the spell contained within (Example: a stone containing the knowledge of the spell "Blink" would be a "Blinkstone").
Cost: Level^2 * 1,000 gp

Simple and effective. What do you think?

Good work, Thanee.

-B-

 

[Ferrix]

i think i prefer this option to your re-revised psion... otherwise... you kick the psion down to watch the sorceror watch the wizard stomp people.

most people i've encountered play a specific casting/manifesting class for a character idea rather than power level directly (although it usually plays a subliminal part in the character idea) and it seems that this is the way to make them not feel punished for choosing that psion or sorceror.

nice.

 

[Thanee]

Interesting concept, and powerful too. I'd remove the ability to cannibalize 0th level slots, though (no sorcerer would ever cast a single 0th level spell using a 0th level slot -- 6 0th level spells = 1 extra 3rd level spell. If the sorcerer actually cast a 0th level spell -- highly unlikely -- they'd use a higher level slot, as needed)

Hmm... I tend to use those for detect magic quite a bit... And one extra 3rd level spell isn't really that much eventually...

I'd go with the metamagic feat idea, personally, and make it available to both sorcerors and wizards (wizards would make all the decisions when preparing the spells).

Yep, that was the idea of the comment (making it a metamagic feat).

Nice. I'd throw in another new item, something like we've done IMC and, amazingly enough, called a [Spell]stone (hmmm...):

New Item: [Spell]stone: [Spell]stones hold the knowledge of a spell that can be used for spontaneous casting. If the owner of a [spell]stone is able to spontaneously cast spells, he can use the spell contained in the [spell]stone as if it were on his list of spells known. [Spell]stones are named after the spell contained within (Example: a stone containing the knowledge of the spell "Blink" would be a "Blinkstone").
Cost: Level^2 * 1,000 gp

*LOL* Quite funny with the name... but I wouldn't consider this item, it's too powerful IMHO.

Good work, Thanee.

TY

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

About Knowledge: the planes - I think this is also a skill that very much relates to magical knowledge, and also with the availability of conjuration (summoning, calling, etc.) spells, it just seemed natural somehow.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Evilhalfling]

Thanee and co.

have you tried the other sorcerer fix ?
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82388
It gives more flavor to the sorcerer with lineages, basically a domain spell list learned automatically, and a choice of two new spells every level.
It leaves the casting and spell advancement alone, instead giving special ablities at progressive levels.
My problem with the sorcerer is not power, which seems to be the consenus here, but playablity
- i.e. lack of spell variety makes them unplateable.
There is no reason to not take a prestige class as soon as possible.
which is something 3.5 fixed for ranger and bard.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, I have looked into that quickly. Found it a bit too complex (too much fancy stuff), really.

Flavor is what you make up in your character background. The class just provides the mechanics.

The lack of spell variety is something that you cannot really fix (beyond what I have done above by giving faster access to the spells known), without making them too powerful. It's the limit that keeps the spontaneous casting in check.

EDIT: Just looked into the most recent version again... funny, how many of the stuff is very similar, heh. Skill points, class skill list, spell weaving (at least basically the same idea (the above being quite a bit more powerful), I also thought about making it a full-round action, but decided against it for now. ).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ferrix]

I'm with Thanee on that one, too much complexity with bloodlines and what not gets annoying... i think thanee's fix is my favorite so far.

An idea I had for sorcerors was fix them up with Thanee's increased spells per day, spells known and metamagic fix but give them a 0 in the spells per day slot one level earlier for each spell level but no spells known for that level, so they can metamagic a spell up and over the standard if they get bonus spells for that level. Or allow the spell merging to grant them a spell-slot up to one above their normal allowed so they can merge two lower slots to get a higher level metamagiced spell (this might be better in regards to PrC's that require a specific casting level and what not).

 

[Thanee]

Your character list is growing quickly.

Glad you like it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[mhd]

It seems that what the ranger was for 3.0 turns out to be the sorcerer for 3.5...

I don't think that earlier spell level access is that great. Might be better if the psion is included in the balance of classes, but just between a wizard and a sorcerer (especially non-specialists), the sorc is just too good, now. With bonus feats added, it's all about spell selection and spontaneous casting. And classes need more differences than that. Kinda resembles the old ranger homebrews with bonus fighter feats...

Spell merging is too powerful. High-level spells often easily trump the lower ones, and if you just require the sum of spell levels to be equal, it's way to cheap. Especially if you insert e.g. a Ring of Wizardry I into the equation. It shouldn't be that easy to churn out spells of your highest level.

What about some kind of "raw metamagic" mechanic? By expending spells slots of the same level, you can add a metamagic feat for free. The number of additional slots equals the metamagic level increase, e.g. for just four 3rd-level slots, you get a maximized fireball. Certainly not that overpowered, as the combined damage of four normal fireballs should turn out to be better. The main advantage would be versatility -- and the fact that you can play around with metamagic without having available higher level slots. One might drop the required full-round action for this, so for just seven slots you'd be able to quicken.

Spell merging basically is just one step away from a spell point system, which again is good for bumping the sorc up to the psion, but leaves the wizard behind. And some campaigns might never even include psionics, so there's a lot of balancing against something that potentially never exists. In this case I'd rather take the psion down a notch.

4+Int skill points is a reasonable choice. Emphasises the fact that magic is second nature to the sorceror, so he doesn't have to spend as much time with his spells and thus is more wordly. On the other hand, one might think of them as even more wrapped up in arcane mysteries, spaced out, out of touch etc.
I'd rather go for d6 hit dice. Or maybe even both, cf. Monte Cooks Eldritch Might (2) Sorcerer.

What about familiars? It always kinda bothered me, that both Wizard and Sorcerer have different approaches to magic, but have the same kind of supernatural bond to animals? I thought about restricting familiars to sorcerers, but that Necromancer just needs an Imp on his shoulder. Well, he still could have access to Improved Familiar, he just wouldn't get the animal freebies.