Ready action advice

[Gerion of Mercadia]

think I got this right, but now I'm not 100% sure.
3 rogues in a room hiding are aware there are intruders in their area. They wait in this room ready. They hear the party clunking around outside. They take their positions and ready their crossbows at the door.

The party are aware there are rogues around, but dont know there are any beyond the door. The door is stuck, the front character makes the strength check and pushes the door open.

I said - surprise round - they were aware - they shoot. Hits do sneak attack. Then roll initiative. Main character loses to the rogues, more sneak attacks.

Given the situation at the table, you got it right. My resopnse was to the hypothetical: What if they assume an opponent is on the other side and make the approach accordingly?

I'd rule that there's no initiative without someone definite to roll initiative against. If you don't see the enemy or notice their attack, you're not in initiative yet. However, if you allow things to go to initiative before the players break down the door, and the rogues ready actions to attack whoever comes through the door, then I'd say that since the rogues know exactly where to expect an enemy, and the player is facing a room with several possible enemy locations, he'd be denied dexterity against those ready actions anyway.

Taken literally, the bolded statement would mean that a party would NEVER get to roll initiative against a bunch of PC's who couldn't pierce the magic via see invisibility. Concealment prevents you from fulfilling the "something definite" clause of that statement.
Even if I noticed their "presence" I lack "something definite" to roll initiative against. I'm under attack - but from what?

I take your point, and I kinda agree that the players should not be allowed to go into initiative when they want.

Ok, Im starting to have a problem now. How can the rogues take a ready action to shoot (which can ONLY be done in combat btw because it is a combat action) without knowing WHAT is coming through that door in the first place? In other words, if the NPC's are jumping into initiative because they think a threat is imminent - why can't I?

And this is the thing. What is to stop everytime anyone goes into a room, they always say that, which means there is never a surprise round. I can see the reasoning for this, and part of me says that it is unfair for the characters to have faced a surprise round and then to lose initiative when they are fully prepared for a fight.

Combat is exhausting. When a character enters it he is assumed to be "hustling". He/she can do this for no more than 1 hour IIRC, without the penalties for fatigue/exhaustion - which can kill you. Searching a room is easy enough, doing this in a sufficently large dungeon could be extremely problematic as a matter of logistics. Bad things could also happen if a room is mistakenly "cleared" and there are actually 3 rogues inside...

 

[moritheil]

Ok, Im starting to have a problem now. How can the rogues take a ready action to shoot (which can ONLY be done in combat btw because it is a combat action) without knowing WHAT is coming through that door in the first place? In other words, if the NPC's are jumping into initiative because they think a threat is imminent - why can't I?

They can't. They do, however, get to make those listen checks and realize that there is a party on the other side of the door. Which then results in their getting a surprise round, attacking for sneak attack damage, then possibly winning initiative, and attacking for more sneak attack damage.

There is only one way to ready an action out of combat - there is a PrC that grants the ability, with some pretty tight restrictions on it.

 

[ScipioX]

The OP did it exactly right!

The rogues were aware of the PC's, and the PC's were not aware of the rogues. That's unequivocally a surprise round!

A spot check once the door is open was irrelevant. The rogues weren't hiding. A listen check to hear a stationary foe is debatable, but in this case the PC's probably couldn't make the check regardless.

Even if the PC's say they are assuming that there are opponents in the room, they are still surprised. The RAW requires awareness, not assumption. This makes sense in the real world too. If you have played any first person shooter games, (like counterstrike) and you are camped behind a box, you are much faster to react if you hear the opponent's footsteps than if you don't. You know that there are bad guys who might come around the box at any time, but your reaction time is much better if you can actually hear them approach.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Yes, but If I know the terrain, and I know you are camping... you could very likely be dead before you get a chance to react, just preemptively fry all the camping spots you could be hiding in.

In Special Forces lingo: Recon by Fire

 

[Paul Grogan]

Thanks to everyone for their help on this so far. I'd like to forget my example now and go back to DMG, p.23

Both sides aware but cannot Interact Immediately. For those people without DMG handy. Orcs in a room - a scout at the door sees the group approaching through a slot. The PC's hear the orcs in the room. Both sides aware, no interaction possible. It says to keep track of rounds. It says the orcs overturn a table and nock and arrow. The party cast spells and so on. Then the fighter opens the door and thats when initiative is called for.

A couple of questions about this:
1. Have the orcs readied actions? I would say yes although does it kinda breaks the rule that readying is a standard action so you can only do it in combat?
2. When the door is opened and initiative is rolled, is everyone considered flat footed until they have had an action. I'm thinking yes.

If the 2 above cases are true, then I think this might be the solution I am looking for. It means at best, the orcs get to shoot as the PC goes through the door if they lose initiative, but if they win initiative, they get to shoot at a flat footed opponent.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Then the fighter opens the door and thats when initiative is called for.

Short answer:
1. No
2. Yes

This is why things are so confusing. Awareness of a foe, and the ability to engage that foe are separate matters. To achieve the mighty bonus of a suprise round, you need both awarness and engageability before your opponent gets awareness, which was the scenario you mentioned in your OP. It also leads to the following:

If when the door is opened - a character can win init and rush in and hit the orcs.
If the orcs ... win initiative on the next round, they get (now 1) flat footed opportunitiy.

Both of these seem wrong to me and all my players. Hence looking for a solution.

The solution is that a potential combatant rolls initiative immediately upon either becoming aware of an opponent or presuming an opponent will be in a particular area. The PC's "declare" something to be their opponent. Wether it is acutally there or not... is DM decision.

The actual "shooting" if you will begins when one side or the other decides to take out that door. Standoffs can be a whole lot of fun.

 

[Paul Grogan]

The solution is that a potential combatant rolls initiative immediately upon either becoming aware of an opponent or presuming an opponent will be in a particular area. The PC's "declare" something to be their opponent. Wether it is acutally there or not... is DM decision.

The actual "shooting" if you will begins when one side or the other decides to take out that door. Standoffs can be a whole lot of fun.

Can you explain this in a bit more detail, as I am not sure I am with you. At what point in my example with the orcs should initiative be rolled?

If it is once the door is opened, this means a character could win initiative and rush in and hit one, even though the orcs are fully aware the group are there and should realistically get at least one shot off before they are attacked.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Once a group (PC or NPC) chooses to go to "combat speed"; they should roll initiative. Most of the time, this will happen when they become aware an opponent is approaching. The example you have isn't exactly ideal for this -

Orcs in a room - a scout at the door sees the group approaching through a slot. The PC's hear the orcs in the room. Both sides aware, no interaction possible. It says to keep track of rounds. It says the orcs overturn a table and nock and arrow. The party cast spells and so on. Then the fighter opens the door and thats when initiative is called for.

Interaction is "possible" at Italics - especially if the orc had a weapon to shoot thru the slot. The orcs should roll then, as they are aware of the PC's and the DM decides they are "Hostile".

The PC's should roll when they hear the orcs and decide to attack. (They have clearly done the first - the actual INTENT to do the second is something that the PC must declare. It isn't something you can ASK without tipping your hand as a DM however.)

The soon to be combatants can't shoot at each other yet - but either side could then ready actions.

Somebody opens the door... and at that point all readied actions keyed to the door being opened occur.
If you have multiple readied actions, actions occur in order of acting character's initiative bonus.
In the event of identical init bonuses, decide by higher dexterity score.
If you are still "tied" choose at random - d20 high roll wins.

Keep in mind that a whole lot of arrows, bolts, daggers, and what not could come flying thru that doorway really fast BOTH ways - theoretically every combatant with the exclusion of the door opener could potentially be firing a single ranged attack or casting a spell.

If any combatant is "hidden" - a reactive spot check is called for when "line of sight" is opened up. If you open fire, you reveal your position unless "sniping".

If you have some characters w/ readied actions, and others delaying... it REALLY gets complicated rules wise, but resolution is simple enough.

 

[Paul Grogan]

Somebody opens the door... and at that point all readied actions keyed to the door being opened occur.

Didnt you say earlier that when I said would there be any readied actions, you said "No"?

Anyway, the question is - in that part where the door is opened and readied actions kick in - is the character who opened the door considered flat footed?

 

[hong]

You cannot ready actions outside the context of an initiative cycle (generally meaning: combat).

Either

1) Roll initiative before the door is opened; rogues win init and ready; PC kicks door in; rogues get attacks off but PC is not flat-footed

2) PC kicks door in; roll init; rogues win init and attack normally; PC is flat-footed

I'd go with 2) for simplicity.