Ready action advice

[moritheil]

You cannot ready actions outside the context of an initiative cycle (generally meaning: combat).

I agree passionately with this statement.

Otherwise you will have people running around saying, "I always have an action readied to do X in case of Y! All day long! As soon as something bad happens, it should trigger! Why are you giving that rogue sneak attack damage against me?"

 

[Jhaelen]

You cannot ready actions outside the context of an initiative cycle (generally meaning: combat).

Doh! Of course, you're absolutely right!
I had a feeling something was odd about the situation the OP described - now I know what it was

I remember a different argument about immediate/swift actions that dissolved because they have no meaning outside of a combat.

 

[Paul Grogan]

After a short break, I'm back. And still dont have a complete solution to this problem, and the more different responses we get, I'm beginning to think there isnt one.

I think one of the things everyone agrees upon is that you cant ready actions outside of an initiative sequence, and I agree with that too.

To avoid confusion, here is a new example, with dwarves and elves. The dwarves are in a room, the door is closed. They know the elves are coming for definite, they hear them right outside the door. They have loaded crossbows pointing at the door and they have had plenty of time. The elves know that there may be dwarves in there, and are ready for a fight. They open the door.

Do the dwarves get a surprise round?
OR
Is this the point at which initiative is rolled?

I'm not sure there are any other options. The problem is that option 1 means the dwarves could potentially get 2 attacks if they win the initiative once the surprise round is over. And option 2 means that the elves could rush in and whack the dwarves before they get a shot off.

And both of these situations are ones which myself and all my players want to avoid.

Thanks again to everyone for their help.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Here's what I would do, though this is not necessarily RAW...

Assuming that the Dwarves have already become aware of the elves running around in their stronghold, or whatever.

1st... While everyone is still on opposite sides of the door. The Dwarves (or rogues from your first example) would get a Move Silently check (with a circumstance bonus for sitting still) opposed by the Elves' (or the party, in your first example) Listen check. Those that succeed on the Listen check become aware of opponents on the other side of the door. (ie. they will get to act in the surprise round).

2nd... The door gets kicked open. This starts the encounter. At the beginning of an encounter, you make Spot checks. I'd also give the guy kicking in the door the penalty for being distracted (a -4 or -5, I believe). The DC for the Spot checks is the higher of 20 or the Hide check of anyone who is hiding. Those who succeed become aware of opponents. Further, they actually see their opponents. Characters who are hiding recieve a -5 penalty to their Spot checks.

3rd... Everyone rolls Initiative. I'd give the Dwarves a +4 circumstance bonus to their Initiative rolls, to emulate their attempt at ambush.

4th... Anyone who is aware of opponents gets to act, in initiative order, in the surprise round.

5th... Regular combat rounds commence. As an extra added bonus, those who did not act in the surprise round may only take either a Move action or a Standard action (but not both) during the first regular round of combat.

Again... Not exactly RAW, but pretty fair to both those that were attempting the ambush and those who would be ambushed.

Later
silver

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I'll chime in to agree with others that aside from the readied actions, the original poster handled this correctly. (Initiative is not rolled until the encounter actually begins, and readied actions can't exist without initiative.)

One thing I'd ask ... what's so unreasonable about rogues having an advantage in an ambush situation? It's like being perturbed that fighters shine in an anti-magic shell, or that clerics mow down lesser undead like rotten wheat, or that wizards can fireball from 600 feet away. It's supposed to be like that.

Even so, it's not that huge an advantage. First, the rogues do have to win initiative to get the second sneak attack. Second, there's almost no chance of there being a third sneak attack ... in the first round of combat (after the surprise round), the rogues will be engaged. Presumably they'll be dropping their crossbows and drawing weapons, and soon thereafter they'll probably be dead. Third, assuming a fighter's in front, there's a damned good chance the rogues don't even hit with those sneak attacks ... a traditional fighter's AC doesn't come from Dexterity.

If you chivvy a bad-guy rogue out of sneak attacks, you might as well slash the CR of the encounter to something like half what it should be, in short.