Real world good Vs Story good???

[Neonchameleon]

Spoilers for Whedon's first two series:

Angel and Buffy are very, very different series when it comes to human fatalities. Buffy never kills a human being and there are very bad consequences when Faith pulls a manslaughter (at which point she does start to murder), Giles (killing Ben precisely because Buffy could never do it), and Spike, Willow and Andrew both have to go through repentance paths of varying arduousness. Heck, ANDREW got an entire episode focusing on this and he was barely above a C story line at the time.

Angel? If the 18-year-old was blond, there would be absolutely no way he would let her die (c.f. Buffy, Darla). Also, he goes very far out of his way to protect Faith and give her her shot at redemption. Of course, Angel is a much darker series in general... so ask your players if they REALLY want to have their campaign end the way that Angel's does. If not, perhaps they should choose a new role model, m'kay?

I'll take Angel Season 5 over Buffy Season 6 any day of the week. (That said, it's a tough choice between Buffy Season 6 and Angel Season 4). And as for the finales, going out in a blaze of glory having actually tried to make the world better would be a preferable fate for most of my characters to having preserved the status quo, cleaning up a mess that was only allowed to act due to the -up by one of our own.

 

[Janx]

Ah ha ha, what a brilliant idea!

Have a VERY incompetent public defender, who makes things much worse, so it's clear she's getting a raw deal from the trial. Then the PCs are called up as witnesses (since they captured her -- cops involved in a drug bust often do testify, so this is "realistic", if such things matter to you). The questions they are asked are misleading or irrelevant.

Cheers, -- N

Good ideas here. The GM tried a "good NPC who got caught up in something bad" play, which is VERY typical for Dresden.

Odds are good, the players are clueless to the Dresden world, or they would know that stereotypically, breaking one of the laws of magic is a death sentence, even if its an accident. The rare exceptions are when PCs (or retired PCs) stand up to defend them in trial.

To not make this a railroad, the PCs didn't get the message during the bust. Now let them see the consequences of their not digging deeper. Make the trial take some time, reveal information to them, that isn't presented at the trial. This makes them see the unfairness of the system, and THAT is your re-hook. If that fails, well, you have a bunch of Morgans on your hands.

In the Dresden universe, magic is a secret. Wizards are long lived humans and they belong to a White Council. Breaking the laws of magic (mind control, necromancy, time travel, and some others) is punishable by death. The trope Dresden presents is that he is a good guy who runs counter to this. He is the only openly practicing Wizard in Chicago. He doesn't like how the Council does things. The OP's girl has some power, making some mistakes, but it isn't too late for her to not become evil. But Council law would execute her anyway if the heroes didn't see the good in her.

In Dresden land, if they "want to be like harry", the players are frakking idiots for not seeing it (or the GM did a really bad job of presenting data on the NPC before they got there, and when they caught her). If the players want to be like Morgan, then they did the right thing.

Based on the summary of his GM to player conversation about Buffy, these guys are NOT familiar with the trope.

Yes. I've read the books. Waiting for the new one...

I might also point out, the point of any story or (pursuit of a game objective) is that what seems like a straight line NEVER is. Thus, a trip to Lowes for a hammer ends up being a battle with a Chlorofiend in the gardening aisle.

If it were direct and simple, it wouldn't be entertaining...Players ought to remember that.

 

[korjik]

If the girl indicated she was saveable, then the Knights of the Cross would not have turned her over to the White Council. Look at the way Michael and Sanya treated Cassius in Death Masks

Heck, the mission of the Knights isnt to destroy the nickelheads, but to save them.

In the game tho, remember that the players dont know everything that the DM does. If it looks like they missed something, they probably did. If that means you have to get a little heavy handed in hinting, then do so.

 

[Janx]

In the game tho, remember that the players dont know everything that the DM does. If it looks like they missed something, they probably did. If that means you have to get a little heavy handed in hinting, then do so.

to me, it sounds like the players either haven't read Dresden, or have not done much thinking about the books and what it would be like to play in a campaign based on them.

In Dresden, every NPC who brings a problem to the PCs has a different goal than what they state.

Every other "bad" guy has some redeemable qualities.

There's always a third party interfering in what should be a simple job.

There's often a mis-accused target, who really isn't guilty, but looks it, and often is involved in a different secret that makes them act guilty.

There's the pattern of redemption and bucking authority that doesn't listen to reason.

There are targets that are blatantly evil and can be destroyed. There are also NPCs that canbe redeemed and attempts should be made because it says more about the character of the heroes who try, than the ultimate betrayal by the NPC later.


For the DM, these points should have been in the player briefing. This is not D&D dungeon crawl in the streets of Chicago.

In game, the girl NPC should have been introduced at least twice before being linked to the ritual. She needed to be established as a good NPC, possibly troubled, but good. Barring that, after her capture, new information needed to be revealed about her situation, to encourage a shift in the players view of her.

If in game, it's too late, the girl is dead, reveal that information to them, in a way that doesn't make them guilty of a crime, but makes them see that they may have made a bad call. Thus, you induce emotional guilt if they truly want to be like Harry. If they don't see the point, then you have a party of Morgans, and should consider altering your storyline.

In one campaign, I have managed to bring a PC who was a die-hard card carrying member of the wizard's guild (not nice people), to an active agent against. You have to work at it over time, with NPCs and situations that emphasize how "wrong" the people they work for are.

 

[coyote6]

Coyote6- while it's true that Buffy might not give up people to the council, that does not mean that the players all have to follow Buffy.

Oh, heck no; as you say, not everyone on Buffy is like Buffy, and Buffy herself is far from perfect. Expecting random PCs to all be exactly like her would be silly.

My aim was refuting the statement that "that's what Buffy & Angel would've done"; because it isn't, generally. There are probably circumstances where one of them might do something like that, perhaps in anger or with extreme reluctance. (After all, Angel once said, "And yet, I just don't seem to care.") But it would be an unusual circumstance; it's not SOP for 'em.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

This is not D&D dungeon crawl in the streets of Chicago.

In my experience, unless told otherwise, most players assume the game is, however.

That might be the real question - do the players even know they're expected to make moral decisions or think things through, or, to them, is this just a standard D&D beer and pretzels romp through a modern setting?

 

[Krensky]

The other thing re the Knights. Butcher made God's morality on this pretty clear via Uriel's conversation with Harry in "Warrior". Also, if she was evil, the knights swords would have been buzzing and glowing.

 

[Hussar]

In my experience, unless told otherwise, most players assume the game is, however.

That might be the real question - do the players even know they're expected to make moral decisions or think things through, or, to them, is this just a standard D&D beer and pretzels romp through a modern setting?

This is a very valid point. I've found this to be very true for a lot of players. Until you sit down and explain that this isn't standard fare, they will treat it as such. I've seen a lot of Vampire:TM games go very south for exactly this reason. IME, they devolve into a slightly more violent superhero game with poor lighting.