Realism vs Simplicity in 3.5E

[FreeTheSlaves]

That last rant regarding keen was really weak. If anything it showed that "holy" is in many campaigns a peer to sonic in overall power.

I don't think that the revised edition is any harder or easier to run than before but then our characters tend to be very human-o-centric.

 

[Psion]

Psion, under 3E rules, what proficiency does a human need to wield a ogre's longsword (a Large weapon)?

What weapons does an Ogre Rogue have proficiency with?

The former is admitedly a stickler, but no worse than "why the heck is a halfling longspear as long as a human one". (Just like the halfling longspear, the conclusion per the rules is not difficult, the answer just isn't satisfying.

The latter seems trivial to me.

Neither requires me to invoke any special rules as frequently in the typical game as, for example, worrying about what penalty a halfling gets with a human dagger (or more importantly, why).

 

[MerricB]

The former is admitedly a stickler, but no worse than "why the heck is a halfling longspear as long as a human one". (Just like the halfling longspear, the conclusion per the rules is not difficult, the answer just isn't satisfying.

Actually, it's quite a bit more problematic than that, because it has game balance implications.

The latter seems trivial to me.

It's not trivial. That's the problem.

We know from the PHB that halfling rogues get proficiency in human-sized weapons, not those appropriate to their size. Should then an ogre rogue only have proficiency in human-sized weapons? What balderdash!

So, obviously a race doesn't actually care about the size of the weapon under 3E rules (except for how many hands it takes to hold it). An "ogre-sized" shortsword may actually look like a longsword to a human, but it has to be called an "ogre-sized" shortsword or else the ogre rogue couldn't wield it without the non-proficiency penalty! (Well, actually it's called a Medium Shortsword, but whatever).

This then opens up the possibility of a human wizard wielding a Medium Dagger - he's got proficiency in it (because relative size doesn't matter, per the ogre and halfling), and so effectively can wield a Longsword! Yay!

Obviously, as written, the 3E rules don't work for Large creatures wielding weapons. What then are the design alternatives? Well one way (and you can find these rules in the DMG) is to provide lists of weapon equivalencies.

Thus, an Ogre Rogue, instead of having proficiency in "shortsword", gains proficiency in "longsword". This is a real pain to look up, of course, and the weapon lists in the PH must greatly expand for every possible size of weapon - and new names must be created for them.

Is this simpler than the way it works in 3.5E? I don't think so. Well, it might be simpler, but fills the books with many, many lists. If a new weapon is introduced (Orc Doubleaxe), you must provide about 7 versions of that weapon, each with a distinct name, and conversion tables besides!

I think the problem with the 3.5E weapon size rules is that they are simple, and thus give verisimilitude problems, like your halfling wielding a human dagger. (That's why in such situations I turn to the optional rules in the DMG and say "it's a small shortsword for you, Mr Halfling!")

Do I think the 3.5E Weapon Size rules are perfect? No, of course not. There are lots of rough spots and places which the rules don't cover. (Stupid lack of missile weapon rules!)

However, at least the rules deal with characters who aren't small or medium in a consistent manner. I think they can be improved more, and I hope they will be.

3E is simpler for most campaigns because it doesn't deal with large or huge creatures.

Cheers!

 

[Umbran]

We know from the PHB that halfling rogues get proficiency in human-sized weapons, not those appropriate to their size. Should then an ogre rogue only have proficiency in human-sized weapons? What balderdash!

Correction - it is only balderdash if ogres have a large and sophisticated society all it's own that are up to the task of producing larger weapons and training ogre rogues with them instead of the human-sized ones.

Obviously, as written, the 3E rules don't work for Large creatures wielding weapons.

More precisely, the class descriptions don't take character size into account in a way you like. For campaigns where the world society is dominated by medium-sized critters, the rules still make some sense. They just don't give an optimal answer for large critters. But, in such a world, large critters aren't an optimal choice. If they aren't going to make doors bigger for them, don't expect them to regularly make weapons bigger, too.

...If a new weapon is introduced (Orc Doubleaxe), you must provide about 7 versions of that weapon, each with a distinct name, and conversion tables besides!

Hm. Poor example for this argument. The Orc Double axe is an exotic weapon. When your base complaint is "who is proficient with what, and why?", exotic weapons are a poor choice, since generally proficiency with it is gained through willfully taking a feat. Choose to introduce a new simple or martial weapon, and this will be a more difficult point to deal with.

 

[MerricB]

Correction - it is only balderdash if ogres have a large and sophisticated society all it's own that are up to the task of producing larger weapons and training ogre rogues with them instead of the human-sized ones.

Substitute any large intelligent race.

Ogres are just a convenient example.

Hm. Poor example for this argument. The Orc Double axe is an exotic weapon. When your base complaint is "who is proficient with what, and why?", exotic weapons are a poor choice, since generally proficiency with it is gained through willfully taking a feat. Choose to introduce a new simple or martial weapon, and this will be a more difficult point to deal with.

The point of that example is that an Orc Double Axe doesn't have an equivalent in every size category. So, you have to create one for each size category.

Like "Sword" gives you Dagger, Shortsword, Longsword, Two-Handed Sword, Fullblade, etc.

If I take proficiency in "Dagger" do I also have proficiency in all other sword-type weapons?

Now, if we assume that you're only proficient in your own sized weapons, we need a second table of weapons for halflings, and a third table for ogres. If we say that you're proficent in all weapons with that name, that "Dagger" proficiency allows me to use ANY Sword type of weapon!

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

If anyone can show me the fix for the 3E rules that makes them simpler than the 3.5E rules, please do so.

In the fix, please list:
* What weapons a halfling rogue can wield
* What weapons a ogre rogue can wield
* What weapons a titan rogue can wield
* What happens when a human wizard wields an ogre-sized dagger, or a titan-sized dagger

Cheers!

 

[Simplicity]

I'd say something on this thread, but I'm clearly biased.

 

[Psion]

If anyone can show me the fix for the 3E rules that makes them simpler than the 3.5E rules, please do so.

Why? It already is simpler.

In the fix, please list:
* What weapons a halfling rogue can wield
* What weapons a ogre rogue can wield
* What weapons a titan rogue can wield
* What happens when a human wizard wields an ogre-sized dagger, or a titan-sized dagger

I'll worry about that at the same time that I worry about size penalty for weapons and tracking of an additional statistic for each is necessary: when I feel like I need it to run the game.

Holding of breath not advised.

 

[mmadsen]

When it comes to designing a game:

<REALISM ------------------- SIMPLICITY>

The more realistic the game becomes, the more bogged down with rules it becomes, and the longer it takes to resolve anything.

While's there's more than a kernel of truth to that, many games' rules are so far from optimal that they can be made both simpler and more realistic at the same time. There's a subset of 3E that does everything 1E did -- but with simpler, cleaner rules. (Then they added on heaps of extraneous details.)

 

[Quicken]

If anyone can show me the fix for the 3E rules that makes them simpler than the 3.5E rules, please do so.

In the fix, please list:
* What weapons a halfling rogue can wield
* What weapons a ogre rogue can wield
* What weapons a titan rogue can wield
* What happens when a human wizard wields an ogre-sized dagger, or a titan-sized dagger

Cheers!

In 3E rules I would say...

Halfling: Hand Crossbow, Dagger, Dart, Light Mace, Sap, Shortbow and Short Sword
Ogre: Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Short Sword, Light Mace, heavy mace, morningstar, quarterstaff, and rapier
Titan: Heavy Crossbow, Short Sword, Light Mace, Heavy Mace, Morningstar, Quarterstaff, Rapier and "titan's javelin" just for good measure.
An "Ogre-sized dagger" is in fact a shortsword and thus a human wizard is not proficient in using it. A "titan-sized dagger" is in fact a longsword and thus a human wizard is not proficient in using it. However a medium sized fighter would be happy using either.