Realistic Combat that's Simple(ish)

[mmadsen]

Yeah, but in real life you aren't a hero.

A UFC fighter would definitely be concerned about a junky with a knife, because one mistake could have dire consequences, even if the odds were wildly in his favor.

If you were in full SCA combat gear with a sharp weapon and not surprised, my guess is the typical knife wielder would very quickly get terrified of you.

Both combatants can be terrified, because being the odds-on favorite doesn’t mean you’ll come out of it okay.

 

[dragoner]

A UFC fighter would definitely be concerned about a junky with a knife, because one mistake could have dire consequences, even if the odds were wildly in his favor.

Both combatants can be terrified, because being the odds-on favorite doesn’t mean you’ll come out of it okay.

You get terrified of the battle, feel it in your chest; both are the same, just armed differently. Whatever is thumping in the brain, fight or flight. It would be a bummer to have take on a guy in armor having only a knife, though it's the soldier that makes the infantryman, not the rifle. My Dad getting bayoneted knew he'd lost taking on three other guys, he shot one, clubbed the other to death with his rifle, and was got by the third. Hell of a way to be a kid. Sun Tzu said thousands of years ago: "On death ground fight."

 

[mmadsen]

Or the known tendency for adrenaline to give you the shakes. Though it has some benefits in dealing with pain and trauma, its not actually a benign impact on modern fire combat (its a little less clear with melee combat).

Realistically, everyone should experience barbarian rage — until they’re seasoned veterans totally unfazed by a few orcs — and an adrenaline rush should help with most melee combat, while hurting any complex skill that isn’t subconscious.

 

[Theory of Games]

Yeah, but in real life you aren't a hero. You're another one-hit die creature trying to survive the surprise round, often unarmed. If you were in full SCA combat gear with a sharp weapon and not surprised, my guess is the typical knife wielder would very quickly get terrified of you.

But 1HD commoners survive deadly attacks all the time. You can waste a day watching and reading accounts of survivors who were stabbed 10-30 times and lived to talk about it. Just normal people surviving what would be 10-30d4 damage in most ttrpgs.

This is why real combat cannot be simulated by ttrpgs. You can get closer with Wound systems, but it still won't give us realistic results.

 

[mmadsen]

But 1HD commoners survive deadly attacks all the time. You can waste a day watching and reading accounts of survivors who were stabbed 10-30 times and lived to talk about it. Just normal people surviving what would be 10-30d4 damage in most ttrpgs.

This is why real combat cannot be simulated by ttrpgs. You can get closer with Wound systems, but it still won't give us realistic results.

Why can’t this be simulated in a game? If each knife wound has a 10-percent chance of being lethal, you can easily get someone surviving 0 or 20.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Realistically, everyone should experience barbarian rage — until they’re seasoned veterans totally unfazed by a few orcs — and an adrenaline rush should help with most melee combat, while hurting any complex skill that isn’t subconscious.

Even with melee combat it may be a mixed bag; its not like its going to do wonders for your judgement, and there's some evidence it tends to narrow your field of vision, which is--not ideal.

Basically, it gives you a better punch and lets you blow off a lot of injury effects until it wears off, but past that its not really clear (and its probably darn near impossible to really find out since it involves testing for things while under it).

 

[Thomas Shey]

Why can’t this be simulated in a game? If each knife wound has a 10-percent chance of being lethal, you can easily get someone surviving 0 or 20.

Though you probably need to unpack it, since I'd assume a lot of those are because of bleeders, so you need to know why its potentially lethal; if its something immediate medical help can assist with, in a lot of games you may well have a medic standing at your shoulder.

(I've heard ex-combat medics say its amazing what a difference it made when they were nearby and weren't, and I don't think they were just tooting their own horns, and they didn't even have magic or supertech.)

But yeah, the problem is a hit point model is easy but its not really how things work. Things like some elements of what we call "Constitution" or body mass are factors, but anybody can start a bleeder or go into shock, and anybody can avoid that any number of times too.

 

[Celebrim]

But 1HD commoners survive deadly attacks all the time. You can waste a day watching and reading accounts of survivors who were stabbed 10-30 times and lived to talk about it. Just normal people surviving what would be 10-30d4 damage in most ttrpgs.

This is why real combat cannot be simulated by ttrpgs. You can get closer with Wound systems, but it still won't give us realistic results.

Sure. Almost my whole participation in this thread is saying the same thing.

 

[Argyle King]

Though you probably need to unpack it, since I'd assume a lot of those are because of bleeders, so you need to know why its potentially lethal; if its something immediate medical help can assist with, in a lot of games you may well have a medic standing at your shoulder.

(I've heard ex-combat medics say its amazing what a difference it made when they were nearby and weren't, and I don't think they were just tooting their own horns, and they didn't even have magic or supertech.)

But yeah, the problem is a hit point model is easy but its not really how things work. Things like some elements of what we call "Constitution" or body mass are factors, but anybody can start a bleeder or go into shock, and anybody can avoid that any number of times too.

The medic comment is true.

Last I heard, the Army moved away from the idea. But, while I was in, there was a time when they would select a few people per squad to train as a "combat life saver."

The idea was to teach a few things (i.e. how to give an IV; using a j-tube on a throat) that were above the level of basic first aid but not at the level of a medic. The reason for this was to treat severe injuries within the "golden minute" and stabilize a soldier until a medic was available. Getting stabilizing treatment greatly increased the odds of survival and helped to avoid some longer-lasting injuries.

There are games that try to model that. D&D has death saves, which are abstract, but it's at least a nod toward the idea that some injuries are not instantly fatal.

GURPS -despite it's reputation for lethality- gives a lot of chances to avoid dying after 0. This is similar to D&D death saves but with more granularity. Not dying gets harder with greater or more catastrophic injury. There are optional rules that can be used if you want extra detail for bleeding (and continuing to lose HP) absent medical care.

If you'd like to use them, GURPS also has rules that detail whether limbs are crippled and/or some lasting injury has been suffered. While such things typically do accompany HP loss, injury and death are two different things. And, at a certain point, continuing to shoot or stab an opponent's mangled arm may not have an influence over whether the opponent lives or dies. The arm may fall off, but the body yet lives.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Though you probably need to unpack it, since I'd assume a lot of those are because of bleeders, so you need to know why its potentially lethal; if its something immediate medical help can assist with, in a lot of games you may well have a medic standing at your shoulder.

(I've heard ex-combat medics say its amazing what a difference it made when they were nearby and weren't, and I don't think they were just tooting their own horns, and they didn't even have magic or supertech.)

But yeah, the problem is a hit point model is easy but its not really how things work. Things like some elements of what we call "Constitution" or body mass are factors, but anybody can start a bleeder or go into shock, and anybody can avoid that any number of times too.

I've always liked the idea that "damage" to your hit points is no more than scratches, grazes, smallish cuts, bruises, and burns, shock, and the like until you hit zero. At that point, once someone checks on you it is determined how badly you're actually injured.

Of course, that doesn't solve the "gun to your head" problem, but I'm working on that.