Realistic Combat that's Simple(ish)

[Ruin Explorer]

As I recall--and its been many a year since I used it so I may be misremembering--that the Cool stat plus the special Solo (combatant specialist background) skill was used to resist freezing in combat if you were wounded or certain other results happened. It wasn't sophisticated, but given how rare representing it at all is in games it stood out.

Yeah that didn't even make it to Cyberpunk 2020 two years later, let alone Cybergeneration or RED!

Cyberpunk 2020 has Stun/Shock Saves instead that tended to get overlooked a lot, but they're a bit different - in theory, every time you take even 1 point of damage in 2020, you have to roll 1d10 under your Body Type score (with a penalty to Body Type score based on how wounded you are), or you are out-of-action until you succeed on a save against it. The whole thing is pretty poorly worded and explained. Like to to the point it says you're out for the combat, and THEN, after interrupting itself to mock Hollywood with a little table and some chatter, turns around and says oh actually you can save every round - but doesn't specify if that's at the beginning or end of your turn or anything! It doesn't even actually say "To make this save roll under your Body Type score on 1d10", you have to essentially intuit that by reading the Death Save rules which come AFTER these rules, and which are more clearly written! They don't even use consistent terminology, referring to "Body Type value" in Stun Shock Save, and "Body Type score" in Death Save, even though they must mean the same thing!

I actually quite like stuff like the 2013 approach in a gritty RPG, so long as it applies to NPCs/enemies as well, but it does add an extra thing to keep track of, and some players (fewer than you'd think in my experience, but not zero) really don't like it.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah that didn't even make it to Cyberpunk 2020 two years later, let alone Cybergeneration or RED!

I thought not, but like I said, its been quite a long time.

Cyberpunk 2020 has Stun/Shock Saves instead that tended to get overlooked a lot, but they're a bit different - in theory, every time you take even 1 point of damage in 2020, you have to roll 1d10 under your Body Type score (with a penalty to Body Type score based on how wounded you are), or you are out-of-action until you succeed on a save against it. The whole thing is pretty poorly worded and explained. Like to to the point it says you're out for the combat, and THEN, after interrupting itself to mock Hollywood with a little table and some chatter, turns around and says oh actually you can save every round - but doesn't specify if that's at the beginning or end of your turn or anything! It doesn't even actually say "To make this save roll under your Body Type score on 1d10", you have to essentially intuit that by reading the Death Save rules which come AFTER these rules, and which are more clearly written! They don't even use consistent terminology, referring to "Body Type value" in Stun Shock Save, and "Body Type score" in Death Save, even though they must mean the same thing!

I actually quite like stuff like the 2013 approach in a gritty RPG, so long as it applies to NPCs/enemies as well, but it does add an extra thing to keep track of, and some players (fewer than you'd think in my experience, but not zero) really don't like it.

Only reason I remembered any of this was at one point I hyrbidized either CP2013 or 2020 together with Mekton (whichever the version was the just predated Zeta) for a post-apocalyptic mecha-enclaves game I ran many years ago. But the timing on those will tell you how long ago that was...

 

[mmadsen]

Cyberpunk 2020 has Stun/Shock Saves instead that tended to get overlooked a lot…

Cyberpunk 2020 used a couple damage saves, the stun save and the death save, that could work just fine without hit points (and wound levels, which are basically groups of four hit points).

We could skip most of that work by declaring a pistol to have a damage of 3, rather than 3d6, which simply forces a stun save at -3, rather than doing 3d6 damage, minus a body type modifier, divided by four, etc. So, no rolling for "damage"; the randomness is all in the stun save's 1d10.

Let's say that death saves are now easier than stun saves by 6. So an average guy, with a body stat of 5, gets shot with an 11mm round, and he has a 2-in-10 chance of not being stunned and an 8-in-10 chance of not dying outright.

And we don't have to track hit points or wound levels.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Cyberpunk 2020 used a couple damage saves, the stun save and the death save, that could work just fine without hit points (and wound levels, which are basically groups of four hit points).

We could skip most of that work by declaring a pistol to have a damage of 3, rather than 3d6, which simply forces a stun save at -3, rather than doing 3d6 damage, minus a body type modifier, divided by four, etc. So, no rolling for "damage"; the randomness is all in the stun save's 1d10.

Let's say that death saves are now easier than stun saves by 6. So an average guy, with a body stat of 5, gets shot with an 11mm round, and he has a 2-in-10 chance of not being stunned and an 8-in-10 chance of not dying outright.

And we don't have to track hit points or wound levels.

You still need to do something about post-combat healing and effects.

 

[mmadsen]

Back in the day, Champions gave “shock and awe” a mechanic based on its charisma-like stat, Presence, with bonuses to this Presence Attack for bursting through a wall while yelling “It’s clobbering time!” (or whatever).

Grossman made a point about posturing that ties in nicely with this idea — and gives players an incentive to make their characters literally awesome:

Bagpipes, bugles, drums, shiny armor, tall hats, chariots, elephants, and cavalry have all been factors in successful posturing (convincing oneself of one's prowess while daunting one's enemy)…​

 

[aramis erak]

A UFC fighter would definitely be concerned about a junky with a knife, because one mistake could have dire consequences, even if the odds were wildly in his favor.

Both combatants can be terrified, because being the odds-on favorite doesn’t mean you’ll come out of it okay.

A knife fight is often a messy form of mutual assured destruction. I've only thrice had to defend versus a knife - my response the first time was to rip a post from a chickenwire fence and break his arm. Second time, same idiot, I had a firearm; he self-disarmed. Third time, he surrendered soon as I turned around. Yeah, I had the same guy try to mug me three times. Last I saw him, he'd found religion, and become a uniformed member of the Salvation Army...

In training in dagger use in SCA Fencing, dagger vs dagger is often too close to tell who stabbed first, and very often is agreed by the fighters to have been a double kill...

I had similar experiences using rubber knives in training/sparring. Frequently hits being in locations that would be eventually fatal (esp. abdominal cuts).

Cyberpunk 2020 used a couple damage saves, the stun save and the death save, that could work just fine without hit points (and wound levels, which are basically groups of four hit points).

CP2020 uses a hit point track.
You're describing CP2013, not 2020.

 

[Thomas Shey]

CP2020 uses a hit point track.
You're describing CP2013, not 2020.

I'm fairly sure one version had both.

 

[aramis erak]

I'm fairly sure one version had both.

There are saves in CP2020, but they're based upon distance down the HP track. Unlike CP 2013, which was a comparison of damage to body type, and resulting rolls.

2013 is more realistic, but also more a pain to run with anyone who plays D&D... as they whine about it being soooo lethal.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There are saves in CP2020, but they're based upon distance down the HP track. Unlike CP 2013, which was a comparison of damage to body type, and resulting rolls.

2013 is more realistic, but also more a pain to run with anyone who plays D&D... as they whine about it being soooo lethal.

I've seen folks whine about 2020's system being too lethal.

 

[aramis erak]

I've seen folks whine about 2020's system being too lethal.

So have I. The way to get them to STFU is to sub in 2013's FNFF for a few combat heavy sessions...