Realistic Combat

Aaron L said:
Some people don't like sitting aside and watching...
May I ask that we all stop escalating this tangential dispute and get back to substantial discussion? Please?

Or if we want to get mildly snippy about something, how about hit points?

The problem is not that our PCs are never dropped by a single attack, but that no one competent is ever dropped by single attack, whether or not they have plot protection.

And hit points make for very odd hero points with a lot of inconsistencies:
  • Hit points are only lost when you're hit.
  • How many hit points you lose is a function of how damaging the attack is.
  • How many hit points you get is a function of toughness: Con bonus, levels in "tough" classes, etc., not Dex bonus, plot protection, etc. Hit points aren't suppressed by being flanked, etc.
  • Hit points require healing.
  • But hit points are arguably "luck" points that represent not really getting hit, so we can believe an unarmored man consistently takes dozens of spear thrusts and sword slashes without harm.
 
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shilsen said:
I mean mythic in the sense of larger than life characters who consistently break the laws of reality as we know them, while existing in a world which pretends to care about those laws and surrounded by lots of people who are supposedly functioning on a real-world scale. And I think that's especially true when it comes to combat in D&D.
Aha... when you phrase it like that it can see where you're coming from. I focus more on the trappings of the milieu(s), which more closely mirror mass-market pulp and epic fantasy.

My first thought when hearing D&D called mythic is: "But Jason didn't try to sell the Golden Fleece so he could buy a +3 keen, ghost-touch spear and a +1 pelta with heavy fortification."

If Conan is sleeping and a guy with a sword gets to whack him, Conan's head falls off. If Cuchulainn is sleeping and a guy with a sword gets to whack him, Cuchulainn wakes up, makes his Fort save vs. the coup de grace, and kills the guy with his toenail. Mid to high level D&D does Cuchulainn much better than Conan.
That's an interesting observation. I'd add, "but its campaign settings (including the implied one),usually do Conan much better than Cuchulainn."

I don't really think there's any kind of fair comparison.
I'm thinking in terms of their utility as modeling tools. I agree with you (now) that D&D does mythic well by mid level or so. How would M&M fare? How does "M&M doing mythic" stack up to "D&D doing heroic"?

Playing a D&D game where PCs cover a lot of levels during the campaign means significant changes in gameplay.
Yes. A PC starts off like a character of the The Black Company and ends up, as you say as Achilles or Arjuna (or one of the bad-guy magicians from The Black Company).

Every single time, if you play long enough and the character survives... I'm interested in ways to make that ascent toward demigodhood a little more fine-grained.

(Not that I'll do that in the CITY game. I'm starting to enjoy the though of those characters as the peers of Odysseus... mainly because of how f****** absurd it is.)

D&D is designed for things outside the combat system (i.e. levels) to change drastically over time, and that changes combat equally drastically. M&M isn't and it doesn't.
OK. Sure. So then... does M&M offer any significant advantages for running a D&D-like game in which the characters power level changes radically? Are their specific advantages at certain power levels? Does it breakdown somewhere?
 
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mmadsen said:
...but that no one competent is ever dropped by single attack.

By a warrior type, that is. A single action from a spellcaster can still drop or at least completely disable an opponent.

Which kinda privileges sorcery at the expense of swords when it comes to the ability to perform heroic acts.
 

mmadsen said:
When I first cracked open Runequest, years ago, I loved the fact that it was "realistic" -- only it wasn't particularly realistic. Certainly it aimed at being realistic, and it wasn't hard to be more realistic than AD&D, but what it really managed to be was (a) complicated and (b) grim.

One of the first points I made in this thread was that real combat is not hyperlethal. Most weapons can kill in one blow, but they don't generally -- and most attacks don't hit. (Similarly, a single punch can knock someone out, even a strong boxer with a good chin, but it generally does not.)

I actually think RuneQuest is fairly simple to learn, especially the second version I prefer. It's a simple attack percentage roll, which the defender opposes either with a dodge or a parry. If the attack connects, you subtract armor points from damage and the rest goes through to the affected limb. You can also break weapons, damage shields, and inflict critical hits/impales. It's a bit more complex than 1E/2E AD&D, but probably less complex than 3E, with its AOO's, flanking, combat feats, etc.

Obviously any change to the combat system will ripple throughout the game, mechanically, but I think it can be fruitful to think through what the actual consequences of changing our assumptions might be.

For instance, does it change the heroic nature of the game to replace hit points with hero points that get used up avoiding hits or downgrading hits from serious wounds to light wounds? Probably not.

Does it change the heroic nature of the game to base these hero points on something other than toughness, as represented by Constitution, etc.? Probably not.

Does it change the heroic nature of the game to have these hero points replenish through something other than healing? It changes the game, but not in a clearly bad way.

I think the idea of hero points is a good one, but isn't that what hit points are, in effect? Hit points are a simple abstraction that may or may not represent getting "hit." They're probably poorly named, but why not just change hit points to "hero points" and be done with it?

You'd probably have to modify healing spells a bit, but I think it could work.

At any rate, I'd rather explore the subject than say that any realism is bad and any unrealism is good.

I hope you didn't infer this from my post: I like realism, I'm still not convinced, however, that it's necessarily the goal of D&D. To me, D&D will always be a game that best models larger-than-life heroes.
 

Dave Grossman makes a number of interesting points about Posturing as a Psychological Weapon:
The resistance to killing can be overcome, or at least bypassed, by a variety of techniques. One technique is to cause the enemy to run (often by getting in their flank or rear, which almost always causes a rout), and it is in the subsequent pursuit of a broken or defeated enemy that the vast majority of the killing happens.

It is widely known that most killing happens after the battle, in the pursuit phase (Clausewitz and Ardant du Picq both commented on this), and this is apparently due to two factors. First, the pursuer doesn't have to look in his victim's eyes, and it appears to be much easier to deny an opponent's humanity if you can stab or shoot them in the back and don't have to look into their eyes when you kill them. Second (and probably much more importantly), in the midbrain, during a pursuit, the opponent has changed from a fellow male engaged in a primitive, simplistic, ritualistic, head-to-head, territorial or mating battle to prey who must to be pursued, pulled down, and killed. Anyone who has ever worked with dogs understands this process: you are generally safe if you face a dog down, and you should always back away from a dog (or almost any animal) in a threatening situation because if you turn around and run you are in great danger of being viciously attacked. The same is true of soldiers in combat.

Thus one key to the battle is simply to get the enemy to run. The battlefield is truly psychological in nature, and in this realm the individual who puffs himself up the biggest, or makes the loudest noise, is most likely to win. The actual battle is, from one perspective, a process of posturing until one side or another turns and runs, and then the real killing begins. Thus posturing is critical to warfare, and victory can he achieved through superior posturing.

Bagpipes, bugles, drums, shiny armor, tall hats, chariots, elephants, and cavalry have all been factors in successful posturing (convincing oneself of one's prowess while daunting one's enemy), but, ultimately, gunpowder proved to be the ultimate posturing tool. For example, the long bow was significantly more accurate and had a far greater rate of fire and a much greater accurate range than the muzzle-loading muskets used up to the early part of the American Civil War. Furthermore, the long bow did not need the industrial base (iron and gunpowder) required by muskets, and the training of a long bowman was not really all that difficult.

Thus, mechanically speaking there are few reasons why there should not have been regiments of long bowmen at Waterloo and the 1st Bull Run cutting vast swaths through the enemy. [Similarly there were highly efficient, air-pressure-powered weapons available as early as the Napoleonic era (similar to modern paintball guns), which had a far higher firing rate than the muskets of that era, but were never used.] But it must be constantly remembered that, to paraphrase Napoleon, in war, psychological factors are three times more important than mechanical factors. The reality is that, on the battlefield, if you are going "doink, doink," no matter how effectively, and the enemy is going "BANG!, BANG!," no matter how ineffectively, ultimately the "doinkers" lose. This phenomenon helps explain the effectiveness of high-noise-producing weapons ranging from Gustavus Adolphus' small, mobile cannons assigned to infantry units to the U.S. Army's M-60 machine gun in Vietnam, which fired large, very loud, 7.62-mm ammunition at a slow rate of fire vs the M-16's smaller (and comparatively much less noisy) 5.56-mm ammunition firing at a rapid rate of fire. (Note that both the machine gun and the cannon are also crew-served weapons, which is a key factor to be addressed shortly.)​
 

mmadsen said:
And hit points make for very odd hero points with a lot of inconsistencies:

As Obi-Wan said, "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

Consider your inconsistancies from the viewpoint of the explaination I suggested above...

Hit points are only lost when you're hit.

Right, but you aren't quite getting hit. Not getting hit would be gracefully side-stepping the attack (miss due to Dex bonus), letting the weapon glance off your armor (miss due to armor bonus), or easily deflecting the blow with a well-placed shield (miss due to shield bonus). Getting hit and losing hit points might be variously described as lurching out of the way at the last moment and suffering only a scratch, absorbing a bruising blow that dents your armor, or straining beneath your shield under the force of your attack.

How many hit points you lose is a function of how damaging the attack is.

Yep... Because a more damaging attack would be more difficult to turn into one of those near misses. More damage means you had to lurch farther out of the way, or your armor has a bigger dent, or you had to grit your teeth straining for that much longer before throwing your enemy's weapon off your shield. All of that equates to greater accumulated physical and mental strain due to the effects of combat.

How many hit points you get is a function of toughness: Con bonus, levels in "tough" classes, etc., not Dex bonus, plot protection, etc.

Higher Constitution -- greater "toughness" -- allows you continue taking that extraordinary strain to avoid the deadliest blows for longer.

Hit points aren't suppressed by being flanked, etc.

No, but flanking makes it a lot easier to drain those hit points, which in the end kind of amounts to the same thing.

Hit points require healing.

Absolutely. You need time to recover from all that exertion.

In the manner that someone who has been playing contact sports must take a break and catch his breath, and even then, he might have some bruises, scratches and strained muscles that don't fully heal for days.

But hit points are arguably "luck" points that represent not really getting hit, so we can believe an unarmored man consistently takes dozens of spear thrusts and sword slashes without harm.

I'd look at them more like "hero" points or "veteran" points, than "luck" points -- though, depending on the character that might be a valid view as well. It's that indescribable combination of skill, luck and instinct that keeps the veteran combatants in the battle and out of harm's way for that much longer.
 

mmadsen said:
May I ask that we all stop escalating this tangential dispute and get back to substantial discussion? Please?

Sorry. :o I've found this thread really entertaining and educating.


mmadsen said:
The problem is not that our PCs are never dropped by a single attack, but that no one competent is ever dropped by single attack, whether or not they have plot protection.

And hit points make for very odd hero points with a lot of inconsistencies:
  • Hit points are only lost when you're hit.
  • How many hit points you lose is a function of how damaging the attack is.
  • How many hit points you get is a function of toughness: Con bonus, levels in "tough" classes, etc., not Dex bonus, plot protection, etc. Hit points aren't suppressed by being flanked, etc.
  • Hit points require healing.
  • But hit points are arguably "luck" points that represent not really getting hit, so we can believe an unarmored man consistently takes dozens of spear thrusts and sword slashes without harm.

Well, all the problems you have with hitpoints are solved by True20. It allows for non-escalating toughness but allows for escalating defense.* In D&D hitpoints and AC are amismash of toughness and dodging ability, making them very good as a game mechanic, but also making them very unrealistic.

* PCs become harder to hit as they grow more experienced, but they remain equally "squishy" when hit. Making it a save allows for that 1 in 20 percent chance of someone resisting a point blank shot to the head.

The plot protection of the PCs comes in the form of conviction (action points), which allows them to reduce or even avoid been damaged in the first place (i.e the bullet stopped by your pocket watch, last minute dodge, etc..).
 

Celebrim said:
I don't know why you are jumping into this. It doesn't really seem to be in any concern to you.

Celebrim, perhaps you have forgotten that you are posting on a public messageboard. One does not need to have been previously involved to enter a conversation.

First of all, I wasn't slamming him for a lack of understanding of the rules - he'd not made any rules errors and specifically asked that if he had they be graciously ignored. I was slamming him...


So, you admit to "slamming"? I expect you realize that anything we can characterize as "slamming" is likely in violation of the civility rules. So, rather than apologize, you engage in a round of being a pot calling a kettle black. I am going to strongly suggest you reconsider that strategy.

iwatt, you are not blameless here either - when you see misbehavior, we ask you not engage like that yourself.

So, both of you, chill. If you find you can't, I'll extend that to asking you to not reply to each other any more in this thread.
 

Now, I no longer have a forum on these boards, but I can sticky threads (at least the ones I start). So I have this quasi moderator request to make.

If you are having trouble maintaining your composure, could you please do something calming like watching a political program? Then returning when you know you won't be going off the deep end.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
 
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Grossman emphasizes the importance of posturing, and I think that could easily play into a realistic-yet-heroic game:
Bagpipes, bugles, drums, shiny armor, tall hats, chariots, elephants, and cavalry have all been factors in successful posturing (convincing oneself of one's prowess while daunting one's enemy), but, ultimately, gunpowder proved to be the ultimate posturing tool.​
Under the current rules, for instance, a successful intimidate check leaves the target shaken for 1 round, when it should probably leave them shaken indefinitely, potentially frightened, and even panicked.

Plenty of cinematic heroes are so cinematic because they stare down their enemies and win the fight before it even begins. Also, a lot of cool-looking combat gear -- plumed helms, war standards, etc. -- is cool-looking specifically in order to be literally awesome.

Imagine a glowing magical sword offering +4 to intimidate...
 

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