Realistic Combat

Korgoth said:
But originally, hit dice (incl. Con bonus) topped out at 9th level. So beyond that hit point additions were only incremental. That kept a lid on the whole 3-digit hp problem.
I don't really see a three-digit hp problem though. As I've said a number of times, from a realism perspective, the problem is not that a high-level D&D fighter can survive a dozen sword cuts and spear thrusts but that he cannot die by any one attack. Once you have more than one or two hit dice, you can't be decapitated by an axe or skewered through the eye by a spear without being worn down, even if you aren't supposed to have protection.

As I said a few posts ago, some odd decisions went into D&D's design: hit points go up dramatically with level (and without magic), to-hit goes up, damage doesn't really, AC doesn't really, etc.

I would expect Sir Lancelot to last 20 times as long in combat as his squire -- it's not a problem that he's that good a fighter -- but I wouldn't implement such fighting prowess by giving Lancelot 20 hit dice (or nine) but no extra AC or damage.
 

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AbeTheGnome said:
It concerns me that there's next to nothing that a knife-wielder or an archer can do to really deal damage with a single attack. The case in point above was a Rogue, who has the SA option, but a knife Fighter can do no more than 1d4+str with a dagger (you can't even use PA with light weapons). This is not only unrealistic, it does a poor job at modeling cinematic combat. Think about Benicio del Toro's character in The Hunted. A skilled fighter can kill someone with a knife, with one or two precision strikes.

That character isn't a straight figher though. He probably has quite a few levels of the Dread Commando PrC which grants Sudden Strike. Perhaps he's a Ranger with Fav Enemy humans, or an Invisible Blade, Streetfighter, but definately not a straight Fighter. He probably has the Telling Blow and Shadow Striker feats.

You say it yourself: "precision strike". In D&D that translates to precision damage or sudden strike or sneak attack or even improved crit.
 
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Marshall's findings have been somewhat controversial. Faced with scholarly concern about a researcher's methodology and conclusions, the scientific method involves replicating the research. In Marshall's case, every available, parallel, scholarly study validates his basic findings. Ardant du Picq's surveys of French officers in the 1860s and his observations on ancient battles, Keegan and Holmes' numerous accounts of ineffectual firing throughout history, Richard Holmes' assessment of Argentine firing rates in the Falklands War, Paddy Griffith's data on the extraordinarily low killing rate among Napoleonic and American Civil War regiments, the British Army's laser reenactments of historical battles, the FBI's studies of nonfiring rates among law enforcement officers in the 1950s and 1960s, and countless other individual and anecdotal observations all confirm Marshall's fundamental conclusion that man is not, by nature, a killer.

I'll just post once, and then won't engage in any argument, because I've seen this argument on the Internet so many times it bores me silly and I know it'll be back again in a few months. But for those genuinely interested in what studeis say..

Findings by Holmes, Grossman and others mentioned indicate a few things:

--firing rates among poorly indoctrinated soldiers from highly civilised societies vary greatly, but are often very low (see Grossman 1998, Holmes 2004)
--firing rates among well-indoctrinated soldiers are very high--over 90% (see Grossman 1998)
--pre-firearm warfare is much more immediate and personal than modern combat, and failing to attempt to kill in pre-firearm combat is both more difficult to conceal from ones comrades and much more immediately dangerous to the shirker
--rates of male mortal violence among many tribal peoples are extraordinarily high (see, for example, Brown 2000) in comparison to even the most violent parts of the civilised world
--similar extreme rates of male violence are observable in the archeological record for pre-historical times (Keeley 1997)

In brief:

Human beings are neither innately programmed killers nor innately programmed Ghandis. Male humans do have a tendency to attempt to acquire prestige and other benefits from killing other males that they have been socialised to regard as 'not fully human,' which is primarily a function of being 'not like me/not of my group/tribe/nation.' Modern society has successfully socialised the vast majority of men to regard all others as fully human, regardless of where they come from. This engages their natural tendency to resist killing such people. Nonetheless, this tendency can be overcome with appropriate training (like the US marines or the Roman legions), and men so trained (and quite possibly women--not enough studies to say) can be taught to dehumanize their targets and kill reliably.

With adventurers, you need to ask:

How successful is their society in socailising men not to regard any other human beings as 'not fully human and thus legitimate targets of homicide?'

How well indoctrinated are typical adventurers as killers?

Do adventurers likely have experience of up-close-and-personal combat?

The answers won't be the same for everybody's campaign world, but I think if you're going for something vaguely like medieval Europe, professional adventurers will have probably have little compunction against killing, while ordinary folk will probably be reasonably well socialised by the church to regard killing as inherently abhorrent. IMHO, this sets up a very interesting dynamic in terms of the way that adventurers are viewed by normal members of society.
 

GlassJaw said:
Agreed. This thread rocks.

Just to address Shadowrun specifically, I've noticed the style of play of a particular group can vary incredibly. I know that in the group I've played with, violence is usually an absolute last resort, not only because combat can be extremely deadly but also because of resistance to killing civilians or at least other people who are just doing their job (like cops, etc). We tend to emply unarmed combat and social skills quite frequently.

The thing with the SR system is that from a rules perspective, it focuses heavily on firearms so many players gravitate towards that. SR plays quite differently if you throw a little *gasp* morality into the mix.

*nod* I've had several Shadowrun characters who prefer to use non-lethal combat, especially against Lonestar. Fortunately Shadowrun actually has a lot of options that way. Sleep spells, shock sticks, the ever useful Ares Squirt (I love that gun.) Of course, given that the damage track overlaps from mental to physical I have had mages kill people with a single sleep spell. (Not my fault they are so weak willed...)
 

JRR_Talking said:
we mostly play SPI dragonquest which models 'hits' pretty well, including why a duel with a rapier is less lethal than with a slashing blade.

I think you mean rapiers are more deadly?

My research into duels seems to show that slashing styles tended to produce clean easily patchable wounds which healed up nicely. Point based weapons are all too likely to pierce the abdominal wall which at best usually leads to a long slow death from peritonitis.
 

Andor said:
*nod* I've had several Shadowrun characters who prefer to use non-lethal combat, especially against Lonestar. Fortunately Shadowrun actually has a lot of options that way. Sleep spells, shock sticks, the ever useful Ares Squirt (I love that gun.) Of course, given that the damage track overlaps from mental to physical I have had mages kill people with a single sleep spell. (Not my fault they are so weak willed...)

Also, the side benefit is that you can make someone dead after they're unconscious, but you can't bring them back from the dead.

Of course, in many cases it's hard for the target to know that the bullets headed their way aren't the reduced lethality ones.

Brad
 

cignus_pfaccari said:
Also, the side benefit is that you can make someone dead after they're unconscious, but you can't bring them back from the dead.
As long as we're discussing realistic combat, we should note that most attacks with a good chance of knocking someone out also have a decent chance of causing serious, lasting injury. In real life, getting knocked out by a blow to the back of the head, for instance, is life-threatening, and the victim doesn't rub his neck, ask, "What happened?", then continue on his merry adventure.

Similarly, knockout drugs used in large enough doses to knock out most people quickly will more-than-knockout some of them, shutting down their respiratory systems and killing them.
 

I still find that the critical hit system from AD&D Skills & Powers is the best way of approximating realism in the D&D combat system. There's a chance of maiming and death, with some minor wounds and injuries in between.
 

Hairfoot said:
I still find that the critical hit system from AD&D Skills & Powers is the best way of approximating realism in the D&D combat system. There's a chance of maiming and death, with some minor wounds and injuries in between.

And, you get a saving throw to avoid critical effects other than the increased weapon damage, iirc.
 

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