Really nasty crit, or bad ruling?

[Elric]

Actually, this class is somewhat unfair to PCs. It has ridiculous offensive power that can be turned against the party. PCs care about that, so a PC Berserker might kill other PCs. It is no consolation to the PCs if the frenzied berserker kills some of his allies after killing the party. Plus, deathless rage is one ridiculous ability and the strength bonuses are insane.

Also, a PC needs to be healed before the end of his deathless rage (maybe a lot!) or he’s dead. An NPC just has to kill the PCs before he dies. Again, it is no consolation if the NPC Berserker falls over dead after killing the party.

I remember in a previous campaign someone had a level 16 1/2 Orc Frenzied Berserker, Str 20+ 4 Rage + 10 Frenzy + 4 levels + 6 enhancement= 44 Str!

DM_Matt actually threw some frenzied berserkers at our party recently and no one figured out that they were frenzied berserkers out of character (or maybe we did and didn’t remember Deathless Rage). After hitting one "until his guts were falling out,” we took advantage of superior mobility and ran away. If you don’t have a way to kill them and either don’t realize that you should run away early enough or don’t have enough mobility to get away, you will simply lose every encounter.

 

[James McMurray]

What makes it worse is that the PCs really can't beat it with its Deathless Rage unless they know that that ability is in play. Its simply not the sort of thing that they would think about, let alone the loopholes (i.e. that the damage that disintegrate does on a sucessful save can kill them). Thus, either they need to be talked about in the campaign enough that the PCs know about them, or else you need to expect them to metagame.

If the guy I'm fighting has his intestines fall out on the floor and continues to fight, I'm going to start considering other options besides my sword.

 

[jgsugden]

If the guy I'm fighting has his intestines fall out on the floor and continues to fight, I'm going to start considering other options besides my sword.

Like, perhaps, a mop?

 

[Crothian]

or a way to escape!! don't fight with out and escape plan!

 

[Bauglir]

I'd assume it was some kind of undead creature..

 

[ruleslawyer]

I'd suggest that the Deathless Frenzy ability be changed to something like a superior version of the Ferocity special ability: IOW, the FB can fight without penalty while disabled or dying, and his negative hit point range is increased by twice his FB class level. Thus, a 10th-level FB is not disabled or dying even when reduced to negative hit points, and he dies only when reduced to -30 hit points.

As for PC FBs: I've been thinking about this, and I've realized that 1) the FB is one of the few truly terrifying straight-up fighting archetypes at high levels and 2) that I like it for that reason! They're really, really tough, but, as jgsugden said, the kind of punch a Power Attacking FB packs is no greater than that of a high-level save-or-die or metamagicked direct damage spell. And the FB has more to lose: Getting attacked in return (something that casters can avoid by staying at range), turning on his buddies, and getting hampered, tripped, surrounded, or otherwise tactically incapacitated.

That said, I'd also limit the FB's power attack, as I think it scales up too quickly. Maybe have Improved PA give +5 for every -2 with a two-handed weapon, and Supreme PA +3 for every -1.

 

[Gaiden]

Question: would a simple calm emotions spell end the frenzy? I am pretty sure it ends the rage.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Actually, this class is somewhat unfair to PCs. It has ridiculous offensive power that can be turned against the party. PCs care about that, so a PC Berserker might kill other PCs. It is no consolation to the PCs if the frenzied berserker kills some of his allies after killing the party. Plus, deathless rage is one ridiculous ability and the strength bonuses are insane.

Good point.

Haste and Teleport had the exact same problem in 1e/2e. They both had huge longterm downsides, cumulative aging and instant death, but the full price for using these spells generally only gets paid by PCs.

These "Discounted-for-NPCs" abilities are a dangerous kind of metagaming that DMs should be careful about. I am not saying never use them, but they are not necessarily much different than fudging the dice against the PCs behind the screen.

 

[Liquidsabre]

As a PC the frenzied berzerker is scary but still doable and the PC has many things to be worried about as far as dying/killing other PCs, etc. An NPC doesn't worry so I'd consider it a little unfair to unleash one on the PCs especially without exceptional descriptors that describe the crazier than usual look than a normal barbarian. Besides I prefer an appropriate dramatic build-up.

Think BBEG rubbing red warpaint into his frenzied berzerkers shoulders "You...*inhales* are my number one....*inhales* guy!!"

And then unleashes the freaky dude onto the party, foaming mouth, banging weapon against his head kinda thing. But that's just me, just hacking a PC with an unknown threat isn't any fun. Better to see them squirm heh!

 

[Jeremy]

Especially with the area the PC's are in as far as I know that's got to have been really hard for them to have recognized the deathless frenzy. Considering how much of the stuff there is undead and would keep fighting sans arms and chests...

But no, you did it right. The chances of the crit weren't good and the chances of the crit on someone with fortification armor is less. PC's die. You can't challenge evil empires killing 100's of creatures and not expect to have it come back to you.

No one is THAT lucky.

Now there are somethings that are just too dirty to use...

I had a psychic warrior/deepwood sniper who used a psionic bow of coup de grace (psionics handbook) that I never found a way to use in my campaign. Why? Because 1/day he could ranged coup de grace a non helpless opponent doing x8 damage on an arrow with a fort save or die with a DC equal to 15 plus the insane damage done.

It was basically death with no save. The worst part was, as a psychic warrior it was a fell shot. That meant it was a ranged touch attack. Given the deepwood sniper's range at that level (half a mile), and his huge hide skill and modus operandi.... Well, the opponent is going to be flatfooted.

So what is a PC's flat footed touch attack? Instant death for anything with almost guaranteed getaway with starting lead and quickened dimension door after the shot was too close to the perfect crime.

I thought of maybe having him kill an NPC and have them have to divine and track him down, but that just meant there'd be an encounter between the PC's and the sniper and more painful death.

Some things are just too dirty to do to pc's.